[worry]

They're books? Now the whole thing is ruined.

[jonny_anonymous]

worry, on 07 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

They're books? Now the whole thing is ruined.

Darn it, I've ruined everything!

[jonny_anonymous]

I'm only halfway through Toll the Hounds but sometimes I think Silchas Ruin and Karsa Orlong are a second attempt at the characters of Caladan Brood and Anomander Rake.

[Mentalist]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

I'm only halfway through Toll the Hounds but sometimes I think Silchas Ruin and Karsa Orlong are a second attempt at the characters of Caladan Brood and Anomander Rake.

I'm just gonna say RAFO (including FoD), but comparing Karsa and Brood is like comparing apples to salt.

[jonny_anonymous]

Mentalist, on 15 October 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

I'm only halfway through Toll the Hounds but sometimes I think Silchas Ruin and Karsa Orlong are a second attempt at the characters of Caladan Brood and Anomander Rake.

I'm just gonna say RAFO (including FoD), but comparing Karsa and Brood is like comparing apples to salt.

I wasn't comparing them as such, more like Erikson had versions of characters in mind but when writing them they naturally evolved in to something different so he created new characters to fulfil the original roles he had in mind.

[Mentalist]

Hmmm... nope, still not seeing it. They're diametrically different. Karsa plays a huge role in the CG-related conflict. In fact, he is shaped by that conflict-it's the Unbound who urge his journey, after all.
Brood is an Ascendant with millenia of history behind him (and it gets worse if you read FoD). You suggest that initially SE aimed to have Brood ally with CG, but then had Karsa fill that role to be his "champion"--except there's already ANOTHER really old and powerful being working for the CG-namely, Kallor...

Seriously, RAFO. TtH especially has more of Brood, and you can see how the 2 chars are completely different. They don't have the same origins, and at no point do they share the same motivations.

[jonny_anonymous]

No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is Erikson said Karsa was created as a homage\deconstruction of Conan the Cimmerian, his appearance being of a brutish barbarian but in reality being a deep and intelligent person. Karsa has an extreme distaste for the world's idea of civilisation and plans to burn it all to the ground and give it back to the wild. Brood is the chosen of the "world" and carries a weapon that will do that exact thing.

Yes I know they are different characters and I know they get even more different as the books go own, that is my entire point. One character ended up diverging so another was created that fulfilled Erikson's original ideas.

[Mentalist]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is Erikson said Karsa was created as a homage\deconstruction of Conan the Cimmerian, his appearance being of a brutish barbarian but in reality being a deep and intelligent person. Karsa has an extreme distaste for the world's idea of civilisation and plans to burn it all to the ground and give it back to the wild. Brood is the chosen of the "world" and carries a weapon that will do that exact thing.

Yes I know they are different characters and I know they get even more different as the books go own, that is my entire point. One character ended up diverging so another was created that fulfilled Erikson's original ideas.

I may be obtuse, but I still don't see your point. If I understood you correctly (and this may be one of those rare times when the fact that English is my 3rd language is showing), you are suggesting that Brood was initially supposed to be "a deconstruction of Conan", and when that did not pan out (as the character's arc organically evolved into smth else), Karsa was created to try again, so to speak, yes?

My point is that I did not, at any point see an indication that Brood may have been intended as a "brute savage barbarian" archetype-iirc, our very first mentions of him are in the context of "Warlord" (that may even be his title as an Ascendant in GotM glossary). He was always presented as an (at first unseen) adversary and rival to Dujek when it came to tactics. And unlike your typical "barbarian" or "noble savage" he led a well-organized army in a defensive war, with his troops being on approximately the same level weapons-wise as the invading Malazans (Malazans having the upper hand due to Moranth munitions).
The only hints of Brood being "primitive/savage/barbarian" I could think of are 1) suggestions he's got a temper and 2) speculations he's got some Barghast blood in him. Both of those seem pretty thin though to be used as proof that Brood was initially intended to be the kind of character role that Karsa fills.

Like I said, i'm just not seeing where SE gave any indication that Brood may potentially play that type of role.

[Nevyn]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is Erikson said Karsa was created as a homage\deconstruction of Conan the Cimmerian, his appearance being of a brutish barbarian but in reality being a deep and intelligent person. Karsa has an extreme distaste for the world's idea of civilisation and plans to burn it all to the ground and give it back to the wild. Brood is the chosen of the "world" and carries a weapon that will do that exact thing.

Yes I know they are different characters and I know they get even more different as the books go own, that is my entire point. One character ended up diverging so another was created that fulfilled Erikson's original ideas.

Again, have no idea what gave you the impression that Brood was ever meant to be a brutish barbarian that wants to burn it all to the ground.

The comparison is simply not there. Not at the start, middle, or end. Carrying a hammer that can wake Burn doesn't really mean you want to wake Burn. In fact writing a character that has had that hammer for eons and NOT done it pretty strongly implies something very different.


PS you just spoiled Conan for worry

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 15 October 2015 - 04:37 PM

[Andorion]

Going to jump in here. In MoI it's stated that Brood does not want to use the hammer. It's in a conversation with Rake.

On mobile, will supply quote later

[Mentalist]

Nevyn, on 15 October 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is Erikson said Karsa was created as a homage\deconstruction of Conan the Cimmerian, his appearance being of a brutish barbarian but in reality being a deep and intelligent person. Karsa has an extreme distaste for the world's idea of civilisation and plans to burn it all to the ground and give it back to the wild. Brood is the chosen of the "world" and carries a weapon that will do that exact thing.

Yes I know they are different characters and I know they get even more different as the books go own, that is my entire point. One character ended up diverging so another was created that fulfilled Erikson's original ideas.

Again, have no idea what gave you the impression that Brood was ever meant to be a brutish barbarian that wants to burn it all to the ground.

The comparison is simply not there. Not at the start, middle, or end. Carrying a hammer that can wake Burn doesn't really mean you want to wake Burn. In fact writing a character that has had that hammer for eons and NOT done it pretty strongly implies something very different.


PS you just spoiled Conan for worry

Minor nitpick: the hammer's probably only been around as long as Burn's been sleeping, so not quite "eons"

[jonny_anonymous]

I can't tell if I'm just not explaining myself properly or people are just not reading what I am saying.

[Andorion]

Right, I was wrong about Rake and Brood. Brood's attitude towards the hammer is made clear through two incidents

Quote

She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed . . . and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She – oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging ... a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking . . . breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it...
Caladan Brood.
But breaking the chains meant freeing the Crippled God. And an unchained Crippled God meant an unleashing of vengeance – enough to sweep all life from the surface of this world. And yet Burn, the Sleeping Goddess, was indifferent to that. She would simply begin again.
Now he saw it, saw the truth – he refuses! The bastard refuses! To defy the Crippled God’s unleashing of a deadly will, that would see us all destroyed, Caladan Brood refuses her!

Quote

‘Time to proceed, then,’ Rath’Burn said, eyes on Caladan Brood, ‘to other issues. You are the one who was gifted the hammer, the focus of Burn’s power. To you was entrusted the task of awakening her at the time of her greatest need—’

The warlord’s grin grew feral. ‘And so destroy every civilization on this world, aye. No doubt you judge her need as sufficiently pressing, High Priestess.’
‘And you dare not?’ she snapped, leaning forward with both hands on the table. ‘You have deceived her!’
‘No. I have constrained her.’
His reply left her momentarily speechless.

As for the larger issue of Karsa and Brood, Karsa is a deconstruction of the Conan trope. That much is clear in SE's essay.

Brood on the other hand is entirely different. He is most definitely not a barbarian nor does he share the common barbarian tropes. He comes off as compassionate, considerate and essentially a good man, A further difference from HoC Karsa is difficult to imagine. This is amplified if you add in backstory elements from FoD on which I will not elaborate here.

As for Rake and Ruin, I see some obvious similarities and some glaring differences

[jonny_anonymous]

He's a large beatial, brutal looking warlord with filed teeth, but is not a barbarian. That's my entire point!!

You know what, it doesn't matter. It's just my thoughts, I'm not trying to convince anybody. You don't need to agree with me and I don't need to agree with you.

[Andorion]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

He's a large beatial, brutal looking warlord with filed teeth, but is not a barbarian. That's my entire point!!

You know what, it doesn't matter. It's just my thoughts, I'm not trying to convince anybody. You don't need to agree with me and I don't need to agree with you.

Umm yes, he is not a barbarian. So why do you think Karsa was a replacement character for him?

[Nevyn]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

He's a large beatial, brutal looking warlord with filed teeth, but is not a barbarian. That's my entire point!!

You know what, it doesn't matter. It's just my thoughts, I'm not trying to convince anybody. You don't need to agree with me and I don't need to agree with you.

What none of us are getting is why you think he was ever meant to be a barbarian just because of his appearance.

[Mentalist]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

He's a large beatial, brutal looking warlord with filed teeth, but is not a barbarian. That's my entire point!!

You know what, it doesn't matter. It's just my thoughts, I'm not trying to convince anybody. You don't need to agree with me and I don't need to agree with you.

Oh, you were making a point based only on appearance.
I have not considered that.

I still think you are wrong, but I won't pursue it further, since I see where you were coming from.

Re: Ruin and Rake. Someone above did a neat "deconstruction of Elric" analysis, which is probably relevant.

My personal take on the THREE brothers is that they represent the 3 possible outcomes of Tiste culture coming into contact with unbridled chaos that is the Eleint blood.

1) rejection (Andarist-not Soletaken, aged)
2) attempts to find balance (Rake-his appearance, "Mane of Chaos", having a full-blood Eleint as his companion, while serving the Andii first and foremost)
3) embracing the Eleint almost fully (Ruin-albino appearance, unbridled rage always moments away from erupting, "thinks Draconean")

Given how prone SE is to break convetions and subvert archetypes, I don't really think there's anything fruitful to find in analyzing "what each char was meant to be".

And then when we consider that the origins for the novels came from a GURPS p-n-p game SE and ICE played a while back, then all talk of "what each char was meant to be" kind of becomes pure guesswork.

[jonny_anonymous]

Because barbarism is skin deep only, that's the point.

Like I said, doesn't matter. I'll move along now.

[worry]

I get what you're saying, bro. We see Caladan in his late stages, a fully mature adult Brood, and we get to see Karsa develop from immature whelp to semi-adulthood. You're thinking Caladan:Bridgeburners::Karsa:Bonehunters in terms of where we get them in their story arc.

[Gorefest]

jonny_anonymous, on 15 October 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

I wasn't comparing them as such, more like Erikson had versions of characters in mind but when writing them they naturally evolved in to something different so he created new characters to fulfil the original roles he had in mind.

I think the major problem with this line of thought is that you are forgetting that a lot of these characters stem from role-playing campaigns, sometimes way before the first books were even written. Erikson played both Rake and Brood in those campaigns, whereas another friend of Erikson at a later stage played Karsa, not even knowing that he was playing a Toblakai. So the entities are entirely separate from a very early point and as such it seems very unlikely that Karsa ever came about as a "recasting" of Brood.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 16 October 2015 - 06:14 PM