[acarl]

My first attempt at a post so go easy

Started a new thread for this because the only other one I found was relating the guy who appears with the hounds to save the last girl to the WFB who saves the girl whos brother got killed by the KC

pgs 459-461 UK MMPB

The Legend is the one where Taralack Veed recounts how snaketongue wiped out the remnants of a tribe in the hills of 7C in the period of the FE.

The first thing I'd like to go over is who the man who comes to save that last child is. Here's what we know:

"Seven Terrible hounds emerged to surrond the child, and a man appeared"
"he was wearing an ankle length coat of blued chain"
"he spoke in the language of the first empire"

Seems to be Dessimbelackis, master of the deragoth, military wear and using the FE language all would point to this. The argument against it being him is why would he show up to save a girl when he had ordered them destroyed in the first place. Which leads me to this quote:

"Two months before the great fall, a commander named Vorlock Duven, leading the Karasch Legion deep into the untamed wastes of the southwest, had sent seventy four Gral warriors into the Tasse hills"

Which for me takes care of the argument against it being Dessimbelackis, after all its not like D can be expected to give every single order to his commanders in the field in this case namely this Vorlock Duven character. So I'd propose that the man who comes to save the last child of that tribe is Dessimbelackis.

The bigger question mark for me is who or what are that tribe?

"tall, lithe, with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth"
"their eyes were close set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears"
"this land -not their home- could not feed them. Abondoned by the deragoth and their kind"

I'm really torn on what species these people were, There are a few factors pointing towards them being tiste (tall, lithe, not their home) and eres'al (irises tawny like dried grass, abondoned by the deragoth) but neither seems to fit perfectly. I think the answer might lie in HoC when L'oric visits Osserc but I don't have my copy on hand unfortunately.

Would love to know what this tribe were because I feel like the child may still be due an appearance or already appeared.

The bigger question though is why does TV have this recollection, if its used as a foreshadowing metaphor I fail to see how, If its to build TV as a character It didn't really work on me, the whole flashback must have some signifigance or why would SE write it, personally I'm hoping it is so we get to meet the child who was saved at some point.

That turned out significantly longer than I imagined!

[Aptorian]

It's such a small and unrewarding passage that it's hard to say anything for certain.

Two comments:
One, I doubt, but could be wrong of course, that anyone has been the Deragoths masters. Allthough I do remember some talk about them needing a master but I don't know if this is a part of the big HoS Deragoth mystery.
At any rate I thought it an alliance, some kind of deal struck, purpose given for the power of old or something.

Two. It's most likely the Eres'al as it fits well into the whole Deragoth and the Eres'al thing from HoC.

On another note, did anyone else expect this thread to be some elaborate crazy theory about the Arthurian legends, the brother hood of the Grale and the Davinci Code?

[acarl]

Using the word "master" was a mistake but there was a significant tie between Dessimbelackis and the deragoth, no?

In response to two thats what my gut told me as well but eres'al are always described as short, often their hairyness is cited and Eres'al are native to the seven cities area as we see in Lorics HoC's chapter. Which is what got me confused enough to make this post.

[Aptorian]

acarl;208410 said:

Using the word "master" was a mistake but there was a significant tie between Dessimbelackis and the deragoth, no?

In response to two thats what my gut told me as well but eres'al are always described as short, often their hairyness is cited and Eres'al are native to the seven cities area as we see in Lorics HoC's chapter. Which is what got me confused enough to make this post.

The Gral legend Veeds tells takes place on 7C continent doesn't it?

Must admit I don't remember other descriptions of Eres'al but the people that was wiped out made me think of them.

[acarl]

Yep, it does I should have explained myself better the quote
"this land -not their home-"
seemed to me to contradict the idea of that tribe being eres'al since well that is their home.

[Dolorous Menhir]

A few points.

"The Eres" is the name of the race you are talking about. The "Eres'al" is a member of that race, the one who does all the time travelling. It's confusing if you keep referring to the race as a whole as the "Eres'al".

Dejim Nebrahl stated that the Deragoth had a master when he was captured and imprisoned by them. It seems clear to me that the man in Taralack Veed's tale was that, or a different, Master of the Deragoth. Whether that master was Dessimbelackis is a different question, and we just don't know. Dessimbelackis' relations with the Deragoth are poorly understood, and he seems to have been absent from the world in the time period described (near the collapse of the First Empire).

This passage was discussed elsewhere, and someone advanced the theory that the single child saved was somehow transported back in time to become the Eres'al herself (sorry, I forget whose idea that was). I'm not sure if that's sound, but it's an interesting idea. At the very least, the description of the dying tribe in Veed's story does seem consistent with the Eres.

[Dag]

Dolorous Menhir;208475 said:

"The Eres" is the name of the race you are talking about. The "Eres'al" is a member of that race, the one who does all the time travelling. It's confusing if you keep referring to the race as a whole as the "Eres'al".

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but... Is this distinction clear at all?

I mean, in tBH Glossary it says under Ascendants: "Eres/Eres'al: a progenitor spirit/goddess" and under Elder Races there is the entry "Eres/Eres'al".

In RG pg. 172 Mael/Bugg refers to the whole race as Eres'al ("...Eres'al, a mated pair...") and Rautos Hinavar asks a few sentences later "...who was this Icarium? was that the name of the Eres'al? The one who died?"

In MT list of Holds, under unaligned we find "Axe (Eres)" (not sure, but to me it seems like this doesn't refer to the whole race, but to that particular "progenitor spirit/goddess"). But just one page before that, under "Other Names, Titles and Terms" it says "(The) Eres'al - the spirit goddess of the Nerek".

In HoC pg. 890 Monok Ochem says to Onrack: "...The Eres witch has stolen his seed. [...] The Eres have the minds of beasts-...".

Is there any reference that implies there is a clear distinction (and that different characters speaking of Eres/Eres'al were just confused or simply wrong?) Or are Eres/Eres'al just singular/plural forms of this name?

[Blend]

Thank you, Dag, for pointing that out. I've been seething about the fact that there's no distinction made at all throughout the books. I think Eres and Eres'al are interchangeable.

That being said, I think that DM was trying to differentiate so as to avoid confusion on the boards as to whether we're talking about the whole race or our time travelling, Bottle raping friend.

[Flawed]

Perhaps there is no distiction in the books now, as there is only one left. THE Eresa'l. Her now being the last, the first. The mother to all.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought it was clear,

Eres: the race
Eres'al: time travelling member of that race

No?

Even if that isn't totally accurate, it's still a useful distinction.

[ShadowOwl]

Wild idea, but from the description and that they are not from "here" which could also mean not of that time, could these be evolving jaghut? oversize teeth into tusks? dried grass irises to dirty ice irises? someone created them at some point in time somewhere......
So if they were evolving jaghut, maybe the lone female became the mother of the creation of the TTT? that's why jaghut and TTT could create jags and why Karsa could recognize TTT in Icarium? They both had the same original ancestor? just a crazy idea....

[acarl]

Re-read the L'oric part in HoC. The general description of the Eres is different in some ways from the description given but it mentions chinless jaws and height. The real kicker for me is this quote from that scene;

"They're not even Imass. No but they will be one day, I've seen others scampering on the edge of wolf packs...A formidable combination but the wolves are the ones in charge...That will eventually change but not for the ones serving the deragoth."

Osric mentions two seperate groups of Eres one who will evolve into Imass, one who will die off when abondoned by the deragoth. Which when combined with the quote "this land-not their home- could not feed them. Abondoned by the deragoth." from RG seems to fit nicely into that being the last of an Eres tribe.

Also found this gem from that same chapter in HoC
"The seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made pact with"

Seeming to prove for sure that it was Dessimbelackis who saved that last Eres child.

Forget greymane, or assail I'm really hoping Dessimbelackis has a huge role to play in this series, maybe that one resurrection that all the others are leading up to.

I love how SE just throws this stuff in, so good.

[Sinisdar Toste]

that seems very plausible, and its seems to be confirmed by the fact that when onrack becomes mortal once more in the refugium he works with the ay to eliminate a rival predator. and trull remarks that maybe this is how domestication and ultimately civilization came to be. aside from gathering food and killing animals that died easy, these developing eres-imass-humans had no skills and working with wolves gave them the idea that they could manipulate elements of their world ...and it makes me think that maybe thats how humans in the real world evolved. wow that came off sounding really out there

[Battalion]

Quote

"Seven Terrible hounds emerged to surrond the child, and a man appeared"
"he was wearing an ankle length coat of blued chain"
"he spoke in the language of the first empire"

This is gonna way off, but that sounds like Kallor to me.

[Flawed]

Battalion;209429 said:

This is gonna way off, but that sounds like Kallor to me.

Good call but i thought he was described as being Hulking in size, so wide as to appear hunched or something along those lines.

Sounds like a God too to me. Its blatantly the chap in the sword. Can think of his name.

Before he was killed by Rake of course.

[Flawed]

Draconis!

See i get there in the end.

[Ereko]

'Draconus is more of a mystery, ofcourse, since he has been gone a long time -' The most reviled of them all! Eloth shrieked, the voice filling Cotillion's skull so that he winced. (BH UK Tpb, p.53)

Whether that long time is longer than the collapsing of the first empire I don't know. But I would assume it was before this dude in the blue chain mail appeared to save the Eres' child.

[Abyss]

Pretty sure Draconus was already yanking chains in Dragnipur by then.

It seems fairly clear that it was EITHER Dessimbewacky, or the uinknown Master of the Hounds.

My guess for the tribe being wiped out was a heavily inbred Edur mix that had been isolated and gradually wiped itself out.

- Abyss, wonders whether chain mail comes in any other colours...

[Flawed]

Abyss;209455 said:

Pretty sure Draconus was already yanking chains in Dragnipur by then.

It seems fairly clear that it was EITHER Dessimbewacky, or the uinknown Master of the Hounds.

My guess for the tribe being wiped out was a heavily inbred Edur mix that had been isolated and gradually wiped itself out.

- Abyss, wonders whether chain mail comes in any other colours...

Is there a hint to the name of the Chain Mail wearing Dude in the colour?

Blue Chain Mail?

Letheri?? Blue Steel?

AHA! ( They sang " Take on Me " didn't they? )

I digress! Perhaps Letheri Steel came from the First Empire and so links nicely to the Broad shouldered dude being Desimwackybackylicus

Cue continued Ahha celebratory singing.

" Ill be Gone, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhh "

[Abyss]

Letherii Blue Steel IS from the FE. It says as much in MT, tho they've lost the art, and in RG we see the Malazanz have apparently surpassed it.

But have rep for the Ah Ha ref, just bcs.

- Abyss, taaaakkke onnnnnnnn meeeeeeee......