[The Shorn]

Hi peeps,

There's nothing I hate more about reading than when im confused about what the people and the world they live in look like.

So naturally i assume Seven Cities is a good deal hotter than Genabackis due to the whole desert thing. But if you had to compare it to a real continent or country what do you think it would most resemble. I'm thinking a hot european country like Italy or Greece for the western part and an African or Middle Eastern country as you get further east towards Raraku and the Otataral Deserts. What do u guys think?

New Zealand for Genabackis with a bit of Alaska mixed in further south for the tundra region near Morn? (there is tundra isnt there? or am i horribly mistaken?)

Next..what colour is dusky skin!! Since when did dusk have a colour other than red if theres a sunset? I swear half the new characters in HoC are descibed as having dusky skin!

Also Stevie describes some people as Dal Honese in appearance and thats all the discription he gives. So what the hell do Dal Honese people look like..ive completely forgotten!

Lastly...Quick Ben and Kalam are from Raraku right? So we assume that the native skin colour is black. Are we supposed to assume that the majority of people in Shaik's camp (Kamist and Bidithal etc??) are also black. I find I'm totally confused about these things and don't know what to assume. Honestly how can anyone possibly know whether characters like Febryl and Bidithal are white or black. I guess we are supposed to assume peoples skin colour by region or climate unless Erikson states otherwise but i can't be sure.

Can someone save me from my ignorance and help me out? thx.

PS.. where the hell do Napans come from...Napalania????? I'm pretty sure we don't know this up to HoC!

[Dolorous Menhir]

It's quite simple. By continent:

Quon = Europe/Asia. Consider everyone from here of Caucasian appearance (eg the Parans, Lorn) or Asian (eg Apsalar, an Itko Kanese, clearly has Oriental features). The Napans are also from this area, but blue skin doesn't have a real world analogue.

Seven Cities = Africa. Consider everyone from here to be black. Quick Ben, Kalam, Lostara Yil, they are all described as dark-skinned. Yes, almost everyone in the Whirlwind Camp will have been black, since it was the resistance movement of a continent with a black population.

MT spoilers:

Spoiler

Lether = USA. I don't have a clear picture of what the Letherii looked like, but I assume they were also Caucasian types. Then again, they are the offshoot of the Seven Cities-based First Human Empire, so should they not have Seven Cities heritage, i.e. black skin? Need a quote on this one.

The Dal Honese are also described as black. They seem to be like a plains-dwelling African tribe. So Kellanved is black, Dassem Ultor (half-Dal Honese, half ?) is part black. Not sure where Dancer originated from, so not sure of his skin colour. Was he a Seven Cities native too?

That's an interesting point you make about a Middle Eastern-equivalent on the Malazan World, I can't think of any region in the books that corresponds to that area, and you would expect there to be.

[Imperium Corruo]

To me the entire Seven Cities area is analogous to the Middle East. I always pictured people from here as mostly looking Middle Eastish with a smaller subgroup being black. When I read "dusky skin" I think light brown. I don't know why, I just realized it does not really fit.

Everywhere else seems to be predominantly white in my reading. Of course that's probably my personal assumptions at work, but I don't think it has ever blatantly been contradicted.

[Kurt Montandon]

Imperium Corruo;207210 said:

To me the entire Seven Cities area is analogous to the Middle East. I always pictured people from here as mostly looking Middle Eastish with a smaller subgroup being black. When I read "dusky skin" I think light brown. I don't know why, I just realized it does not really fit.

Everywhere else seems to be predominantly white in my reading. Of course that's probably my personal assumptions at work, but I don't think it has ever blatantly been contradicted.

Itko Kanese (such as Apsalar) are somewhat Asian, and Dal Honese (Dassem Ultor, the Emperor, Iskaral Pust) are black.

There are some whites - "fair skinned peoples" in Seven Cities, as mentioned in a later book.

The Barghast seem to be darker skinned, at least that's my random impression. And I'd imagine there are many peoples who have a Mediterranean look - "olive skinned" as it's put both in the MBotF and in other writings. In fact, it actually seems as if light-skinned ethnic groups are in the general minority.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;207187 said:

That's an interesting point you make about a Middle Eastern-equivalent on the Malazan World, I can't think of any region in the books that corresponds to that area, and you would expect there to be.

Er, the Seven Cities pretty clearly are a cross between North Africa and the Middle East. Desert tribes, nomadic horse cultures, the names and people have a very Arabic feel to them, etc. To me, the Seven Cities are roughly analogous to N. Africa and the Middle East of about seven centuries ago - essentially a region of some ethnic diversity, but with more to unite than divide along cultural lines.

Not to mention that the whole "desert sub-continent with fertile river valleys as cradle of civilization" is blatantly Mesopotamian. And the Seven Cities themselves echo the older cities of Iraq and Syria, with layer built on ancient layer with an antiquity not quite matched, and only approached in Egypt. That's a kind of parallel to be expected when the world-building's done by an archeologist.

[Shiara]

Dolorous Menhir;207187 said:

Lether = USA. I don't have a clear picture of what the Letherii looked like, but I assume they were also Caucasian types. Then again, they are the offshoot of the Seven Cities-based First Human Empire, so should they not have Seven Cities heritage, i.e. black skin? Need a quote on this one.

Seven Cities natives aren't descended from the First Empire - I got the impression the dark-skinned people moved in after the T'lan Imass destroyed what was left of the First Empire of humans after their failed ritual.

[Tsundoku]

Good questions.

I had the impression that the 7 cities tribes in particular were a big mix of different North African though to Central Asian racial subgroups. I gained the impression that the Khundryl were more like central Asian (Tartars, Turks). Or am I thinking of someone else?

Have we seen any Latin, Central/South American, North European or South/South East Asian racial types? I sort of mentally had Kanese as Chinese, but I guess they could be anything from East or SE Asia.

And of course we can't speculate here about what racial types may be on the other continents (spoilers - no more Lether comments! ), or in the novellas.

Cheers,

La Sombra, believes the Seguleh are obviously Australian analogues, since they're so tough and psychotic, great lovers too ...

[The Shorn]

Thanks for the info guys! It seems like most of us have the same impressions which means the author has done his job correctly .
But now I'm even more confused about one thing. I checked the map of Quon Tali and saw that Dal Hon was right at the bottom. However just north is Quon Tali City. Leuitenant Ranal is from here, "his Quon blood the purest it could be; fair-skinned, fair-haired" HoC.

So if Dal honese people are black and people with pure Quon blood are as white as white can be, who are the real natives?? And if there are also people with Asian appearances from Itko Kan it seems there's a right mish mash of races on Quon Tali.

I also agree with Sombra that there's definately something aboriginal about the Seguleh!

[Aptorian]

The Falari must be Irish then? ... what with their red hair, drinking habits and crazy temper (Yes, all falari must be like stormy)

I remember Dal Honese as being black as night, not just brown by the way, allthough I might be wrong.

[The Shorn]

HAHA! I just read about the Falari having red hair and beards and thought about mentioning it. But you got their first lol! Guess that makes my questions even more complex if there are Irish/Scottish looking people too!

[Dolorous Menhir]

kmmontandon;207244 said:

Er, the Seven Cities pretty clearly are a cross between North Africa and the Middle East. Desert tribes, nomadic horse cultures, the names and people have a very Arabic feel to them, etc. To me, the Seven Cities are roughly analogous to N. Africa and the Middle East of about seven centuries ago - essentially a region of some ethnic diversity, but with more to unite than divide along cultural lines.

Ok, I failed to pick up on this entirely. I just had the simple picture in my head of "Seven Cities = Africa," when things aren't actually that straightforward.

Shiara;207263 said:

Seven Cities natives aren't descended from the First Empire - I got the impression the dark-skinned people moved in after the T'lan Imass destroyed what was left of the First Empire of humans after their failed ritual.

That's good to know, but where does it come from in the books?

Sombra;207265 said:

And of course we can't speculate here about what racial types may be on the other continents (spoilers - no more Lether comments! ), or in the novellas.

Sorry about that, I've put it behind spoilers. Got carried away.

[Imperial Historian]

As you may have noticed SE doesn't do description much, but we do have the following information:

The Dal Honese (where kellanved, dassem, duiker and iskaral pust hail from (all described as black)) are consistently described as black, and certain parts of seven cities are predominantly black, including areas where kalam and QB come from:

"Born on the plains of Dal Hon, Duiker's dark skin matched that of the local Debrahl" DG, (UK MMPB, p.68)

The Napans, from the Napan islands (south of malaz and dal hon), including lassen, are also consistently described as blue, presumably blue-black.

"Her dusky blue skin marked her as Napan," (GotM, UK Trade, p. 5)

The Falar are consistently described a being copper bearded, and comparatively fair skinned, and Fiddler a falari cna pass for a gral, who are possibly similarly fair skinned (this isn't certain as gral where a hood, whether it disguises the face is debatable), they are from an island chain to the north of Quon, but south of Seven Cities.

Apsalar and Crokus are sufficiently simmilar in skin tone to the natives of seven cities to walk unmasked without notice, so there must be equivalents in Seven Cities to itko kanese, and daru.

Rallick Nom is described as dark skinned, and is the only daru whose skin colour is described, so we can presume that the other daru are simmilarly dark skinned.

Tayschren, from kartool, north of malaz, is described as mahoghany-tanned.

The Wickan's, to the far north of Quon are described as tanned, but with heavily tattooed faces, such that they appear blue.

And there's Ranal reffed as "fair-skinned, fair-haired", from Quon.

The seti from central quon tali are reffed as dark skinned, darker than the wickans.

Tarr from Li Heng also in central quon is recognisable as such from his pale stolid features.

There are also several references to 'mezla' eyes, presumably they are generally of SE asian appearance like the ikto kanese, though this trait does nto seem to be common among all malazans.

The rhivii, from genabackis are described as "small and brown skinned".

And other than that there aren't many references to colour that I can recall up to HoC, though I've probably missed a few (there will be a few more details in BH and RG, but I couldn't be bothered to look through them), but basically you can't presume much from geography, quon is a hodge podge of different races and skin tones, seven cities tends to be dark skinned, varying from tanned to black, genabackis we don't have much info on.

And discussions on Lether belong in a different forum.

[Godslayer]

thanks all, this has been very helpful. just started the second book and I've just been generally picturing everyone as different shades of white. It's rather hard not to, i mean this is the only fantasy series I've read that has anything other than white characters..

[Silannah]

That's what makes the Malazan world realistic- there ARE different races/skin tones/facial features/histories/cultures unlike the standard Tolkien rip-offs that currently populate most fantasy shelves. I will admit to thinking the same thing, it's gotten ingrained into my brain that fantasy characters are predominantly white, plus the fact I live in a not very racially diverse area adds to that...

[worry]

What, you don't remember all the dark-skinned people serving Sauron and Tash in LOTR and Narnia?!?!?!

[Sinisdar Toste]

well thats the departure, they're not just portrayed as foot soldiers of a dark lord

[Siergiej]

Napans are from Pandora. Can't be more obvious