[GRIEF & VENEGEANCE]

I was under the impression that most if not all the imprisoned beings of power in the shadow realm were those beings who had tried to take the Throne of Shadow at some point or another.

It all started when the realm of Shadow started breaking up after Scabandari's betrayal of Ruin and Scabbi's subsequent death at the hands of Killimandaros. Isn't it at that point that Anomander and Killy make an agreement to go into the rupturing/fragmenting Shaodw realm to put an end to the fighting? From their conversation it seemed as if there was a convergence of power and that there were large numbers of pure dragons, eleint and ascendants fighting each other for the spoils. Killy and Anomander wanted to make sure that the realm fragment in as natural a way as possible so as to prevent the setting of a precedent.

If I understand it correctly Apsalar's crazy ghost companions were also amongst these dragons who tried to rule Shadow. I am not sure who has been toppling the rulers of Shadow in the years after Killy tried to turn on Anomander and ended up in the Azath house a thousand leagues under the sea. But in NoK Edgewalker mentions that its been a long time since Shadow has had a ruler. So maybe there hasn't been a need for someone to topple wannabe rulers.

[Vengeance]

Grief
I am not really sure were you picked up on all of the imprisoned beings of power in shadow realm making a try at the Throne. What book was that in?

I thought that Emurlahn started to unravel when Scabbi killed the ruling family of the Edur and took command of the tribes. Is it a possiblity that some of the ruling family might have had dragon blood, and the spilling of there blood is what started all fragmentation of Emurlahn?

[Aptorian]

Vengance;207774 said:

Grief
I am not really sure were you picked up on all of the imprisoned beings of power in shadow realm making a try at the Throne. What book was that in?

I thought that Emurlahn started to unravel when Scabbi killed the ruling family of the Edur and took command of the tribes. Is it a possiblity that some of the ruling family might have had dragon blood, and the spilling of there blood is what started all fragmentation of Emurlahn?

Most likely it's the six dragons we see in the RG prologue that started the sundering. I like the Idea that the dragons were the royal edur line, but then you'd think the Killy POV would have remarked on just that. Of course being, sort of, her POV the eldergoddess might just not have cared what the identity of the dragons was.

On the other hand, I doubt that Draconean Soletakens blood has the properties of true draconean blood.

[Lisheo]

Krul didnt make the Elder Warrens. In RG, Cotillion and Quick have a discussion about this, and QB makes it fairly clear that someone else is responsible for the Elder Warrens "QB:whose veins were opened to create them?
Cotillion:I wish I knew. Rather, I dont. I doubt its relevant anyway."

[Mr.Warren]

maybe it something to do with K'rul not being the creator of the elder warrens but are they a part of him? There is a reference to Starval Demelain being his heart in RG, which has been described as the first warren in MoI , the warren of Tiam [in the glossary]

Lisheo;207829 said:

"QB:whose veins were opened to create them?
Cotillion:I wish I knew. Rather, I dont. I doubt its relevant anyway."

I assumed that Quick Ben and Cotillion where talking about the Holds in that exchange?

although I admit I get confused I supposes with holds, houses, elder warrens warren warrens, paths and veins. Oi it makes the brain hurt sometimes!

[Lisheo]

According to GotM, the Elder Warrens were all forged from Starvald Demelain... Which suggests that Tiam may have been responsible for em, maybe.
Its true, Krul is related to the Elder Warrens in some way, but I dont think theyre part of his magical bloodstream, unlike the normal Warrens.

[Mr.Warren]

Elder warrens = organs?

ha! the warren of the spleen! what a thought!
[maybe my warren of sound might be in his anus?] - there is no end to the jokes here I'd imagine

[Locke Reaper]

I doubt that the elder gods used warrens as such. Do we actually know where their power originates?

[ShadowOwl]

The Errant talks about getting their power from the spilling of blood and how thirsty all the Elder gods used to be. So while the newer gods seem to get power from lots of worship from followers, the Elders seems to lose power when called upon, and gain from the sacrifice or blood of their worshippers.

As an example, The Errant, when he decided to go out into the world and be on his own, killed all his worshippers, the FA's in that temple, and the blood he spilled gave him enough power to last till we see him now, losing his grip on it all. When Krul made the warrens with his blood he essentially gave up his power and faded.
The Errant talks about this alot in RG when wandering thru the old parts of the old palace.

[Jorram]

ShadowOwl;207889 said:

The Errant talks about getting their power from the spilling of blood and how thirsty all the Elder gods used to be. So while the newer gods seem to get power from lots of worship from followers, the Elders seems to lose power when called upon, and gain from the sacrifice or blood of their worshippers.

As an example, The Errant, when he decided to go out into the world and be on his own, killed all his worshippers, the FA's in that temple, and the blood he spilled gave him enough power to last till we see him now, losing his grip on it all. When Krul made the warrens with his blood he essentially gave up his power and faded.
The Errant talks about this alot in RG when wandering thru the old parts of the old palace.

Was this event in the past, or in the present? It always puzzled me where did this temple choked full of FA suddenly pop up from?

[ShadowOwl]

Because there is mention of the temple to the Errant not existing in Lether's memory, and Bugg was the only one who knew about FA, I took this to be in the past.

[Dolorous Menhir]

According to Bugg in MT, the FA and the Errant were two opposing forces. It wasn't a worshipper-god relationship, right, the FA were described as bent on destroying the Errant? That makes sense, since the FA were big fans of peace & order, while the Errant's aspect is messing things up for everyone else.

I also don't know what temple of FA you are referring to.

[jwolfbro]

This event was in the past. Udinaas witnessed it in one of his dreams that wasn't a dream. When Feather Witch was trying to tie him to her again. It was the first time the Errant visited him.

[ShadowOwl]

In MT, Mael/Bugg said this: "Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant."
In RG page 330, Udinaas describes the Errant and the temple he comes out of and all the FA's that he killed. So they seem to be linked and in the past.
Not sure what it all means, just one more piece of the puzzle?

[Dolorous Menhir]

ShadowOwl;207983 said:

In MT, Mael/Bugg said this: "Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant."
In RG page 330, Udinaas describes the Errant and the temple he comes out of and all the FA's that he killed. So they seem to be linked and in the past.
Not sure what it all means, just one more piece of the puzzle?

That's strange, I've got "FA & Errant are mortal enemies" in my mind. I remember the piece you are talking about though.

[ShadowOwl]

I remember the Liosan being enemies of the FA, something about the Justice wars, but I don't remember a mention of the Errant as an enemy of the FA.
The fun thing is the more we look for an answer, the more we find other stuff that is cool and off we go on another thing...., love these books! (note: 'you' was used as a collective we, changed to reflect this in case it sounded dorky)

[Jorram]

The FA are described as "the enemy camp" for the Azath, not for the Errant. A lot of the entities claiming order aspect in this series seem to be opposed to each other anyway.

However, I still dont get it about the temple. If EG could just go back in time to kill people and get power, that would be... too easy then, wouldnt it?

[jwolfbro]

I don't think he went back in time to kill them. I think he killed them at the time and then when that time was being used by Udinaas in his dream he took advantage in the present to infiltrate the dream.

[Tarsonis]

I think what Udinaas said about the FA & the Errant is simply that the Errant has the role (among the holds, or like to think so anyway) the FA usually liked to take, i.e mediators, judges, or so.

[Abyss]

It makes sense - a race that is aspected to balance and order and specificity is opposed to a god who is aspected to chance and randomness, and over millenia, the conflict between the two leads to them being identified together by the humans who don't really know the facts behind the conflict.

That stories change over time is a running theme in the books.

- Abyss, changes socks over time.