[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought the reference to "obtaining a champion" meant the act of putting Silchas Ruin in an Azath in the first place. Not the bargain between already captive Ruin and his dying prison, because what does Gothos have to do with that?

[Abyss]

Scabby tossed Ruin under the Azath. Gothos had nothing to do with that, tho he WAS on the scene, so maybe.

Best case, there's an arguement to be made that Gothos is working for/with the Azath, but i still see no link between him and the Ruin/Kettle/Refugim series of events.

- Abyss, bets it was the one-armed man.

[Binder of Demons]

Quote

- Abyss, bets it was the one-armed man.

Eh, what has Dujek got to do with this?? ;-)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;205845 said:

Scabby tossed Ruin under the Azath. Gothos had nothing to do with that, tho he WAS on the scene, so maybe.

Best case, there's an arguement to be made that Gothos is working for/with the Azath, but i still see no link between him and the Ruin/Kettle/Refugim series of events.

- Abyss, bets it was the one-armed man.

I agree with you, the effort to connect Gothos to either the imprisonment of Silchas Ruin or the Lether Azath's later bargain with him is wasted. There's just no reason to link him to those events. When we saw Scabby betray Ruin through Gothos's eyes, it was obvious that Gothos had no prior knowledge it was going to happen.

[ch'arlz]

Binder of Demons;205893 said:

- Abyss, bets it was the one-armed man.
Eh, what has Dujek got to do with this?? ;-)

Probably gave him a hand.

[Lisheo]

I think we can probably assume Gothos is about to get involved. His son did just immolate himself, after all.
But saying Goths is responsible for the whole thing with Silchas is quite a stretch. I think he was just in the right place at the right time to cripple the Edur army with Omtose Phellack, and put a halt so Scabby's plans of world conquest.

Scabby was a bit like a bad Bond villain, really. Delusions of grandeur, a stupid nickname, evil tendencies, and the fact he just kinda sat around while random henchmen thru themselves at his enemies.

[Locke Reaper]

If Icarium is anything to go by gothos would be pretty impressive when pissed off.

As for wether he increased in power when he entered the azath, well he could have. But i think his main motivation was removing himself from a battle that might have caused him some slight trouble. Also he did cause the madness of Icarium.

then again he has spent all this time in the azath but never claimed a realm for himself. He must have all the knowledge that dancer and kel have but just chooses not to do anything about it.

Alterior motive is my vote. He just seems to remote to be neutral.

[Mael]

Locke Reaper;206075 said:

If Icarium is anything to go by gothos would be pretty impressive when pissed off.

As for wether he increased in power when he entered the azath, well he could have. But i think his main motivation was removing himself from a battle that might have caused him some slight trouble. Also he did cause the madness of Icarium.

then again he has spent all this time in the azath but never claimed a realm for himself. He must have all the knowledge that dancer and kel have but just chooses not to do anything about it.

Alterior motive is my vote. He just seems to remote to be neutral.

Although entering an azath is considdered one of the ingrediants of assention, and may confir some power onto the person entering it, there is no gaurantee that the person entering the azath could automatically take control of a realm and rule it.

Kell and Dancer gained control of the realm of shadow by entering the warren during a conjunction of events which in effect had a large moving fragment of the fragmented KE overlap with the deadhouse on malaz island, thus facilitating thier entry. The fact that the realm had no specific ruler at the time per say made taking it over a rather simple transition. As for knowledge...Shadowthrone and cotillions knowledge of the realm they rule (if you can say they rule it at all) is still rather limited.

[Ereko]

I assume that Gothos being in the azath and causing Icarium to be how he is, will have some relevance in the later series.

If the azath give their servants that much info or if Gothos knew at the time of the transition of the shadow realm on malaz isle , he could well have taken shadow over Kell and Dancer at that transition. He was more powerful than those two mortals at the time.

It depeneds if Gothos ever wanted to be a God or wether he is actually taking the back seat until it is time for him to make his move?!

I apologise in adavance if this post doesn't make much sense, long weekend of work and now slightly pissed!

GW

[Locke Reaper]

Gothos doesn't come across as the power hungry type. More like someone who likes to pull strings and annoy godlings who are to full of themselves. Just what was gothos's folly exactly?

[Mael]

Locke Reaper;206133 said:

Just what was gothos's folly exactly?

According to the Errant it is a multi-columend suicide note with no ending. As for what his "Folly" actually was, im sure we'll find out.

[Imperial Historian]

Gothos' folly is just his histories of the world I believe, a multi-volumed treatise with no apparent ending as he attempts to put down the history of the malazan world, which being undescribably long and filled with lots and lots of stuff, is near impossible, and thus considered a folly. Or that's what I always assumed.

And I doubt that gothos went into the azath house out of any desire for power, he gives the distinct impression that he went there merely to escape the conflicts of the world, and be free to continue his histories.

[ShadowOwl]

Throughout the novels, it has been said many times that Jaghut do things that make sense to only them, that no one really understands them.
Imo, Gothos wrote about what interested him and he seemed to find a lot of things funny, so maybe that's why he named his writings his 'follies'. He also seemed pretty definite that it was his idea to enter the azath and he did not want rescued. Through the Azath and their gates, he had all the time and resources in the world to now research whatever interested him without interference. Jaghut heaven?
So Icarium chose to free his father who did not want freed, and sadly 'did it to himself' for what ended up happening.

[Kage-za]

I'm glad everybody loved my theory

Like I said, I think Gothos' connection to the Azath is important. We know that he performed the ritual that eventually led to the death of the Lether house before he had any connection to the Azath because he is still out in the world. Revising my crazy theory, he could have passed the finnest to the Imass much later, once he has already established that connection and realises he needs Ruin's cooperation. He already knew that Ruin was in the Azath when the finnest was made, and that Scabby's soul is something that the Tiste Andii and Tiste Edur would covet.

The bottom line is that it is unlikely he would give the finnest to the Imass without any ulterior motive. He messes with 2 elder gods in order to gain possesion of the finnest in the prologue of RG. The finnest is instrumental in the creation of the Azath house--and it is the object of Ruin's quest. Ruin could only have learned the location of the Finnest from the Azath. The only one who knew the location in the first place is Gothos, who must have told the Azath. Finally, it seems the only motive he could have in giving up the finnest in that place is to create an Azath house there--which is coincidentally the same motive that ST had in sending Trull, QB, and Hedge.

[Aptorian]

I don't think Gothos planned anything. We've seen before that the ascendants and gods pick out players and move pieces into positions and then they wait and see what comes of things. I think Gothos chose to place the finnest in a place he found it interesting to see what could do with it.

We don't even know if it was Gothos himself who gave the finnest to the Imass or it was passed on from a middleman, say an original keeper who died. Or did it specifically say "Yo, Imass-brothers, this funky jaghut I just met gave me this awesome flutething."

About Gothos being extremely powerfull because he deared face Mael and Killy. Besides him having obvious powerfull offensive magic, Killy asks him why she shouldn't just crush his head between two fingers. Gothos doesn't try to bluff her with his awesome worldfreezing power and Killy isn't at all impressed with the little Jaghut.

I think the difference between Killy's interaction between Gothos and Rake was that she trusted Gothos. Gothos and Mael seemed to have the same understanding of the rulebook, betrayal meens you forfit your life. Gothos had been around for a long time then. Rake was a new player. Now while Rake has explained that he doesn't think betrayal is ever a vaiable option, Killy didn't know him or trust him.

[Lisheo]

Yeah. I agree, I think Kilmadaros thought Gothos was trustworthy. Mael, being one of the most powerful Elder Gods (even referred to as the Eldest occasionally), didnt have much to worry bout.
Maybe Gothos's folly was deciding to abandon Icarium, and he wrote the Folly to try and aid his son, indirectly, with knowledge about the world? Icarium knows too many ancient secrets to have just discovered them in his travels.

[Aptorian]

Mayb Gothos originally entered the Azath and found the Azath of Time. Made a Iccy baby and then used his sparetime from there on to writting the Folly, having the power of time to see all of history once again.

[Lisheo]

That sounds like somthing Gothos might do, alright. A deal: Ill guard you if you let me use your power.

[Abyss]

It certainly seems to follow that Gothos would want access to the knowledge and security/isolation hagning in the Azath represents - ie: ok, so Tlan Imass are running around killing Jaghut, and i REALLY don't want to send the next milenia watching my green butt all the time, so...).

Gothos certainly implied in DG that he knew the will of the Azath and was expressing its annoyance that Fiddler and co had prevented Tremolor from taking Iccy counter to some hazy arrangement with Shadowthrone.

The Azath seem to prefer powerful Guardians/Keepers (Moby, Raest, those we see in NoK - it wasn't really clear whether Kila and Sechul were prisoners or guests). Kettle was an exception, where the House worked with what it had available and gave her some power at its own expense

That said, i suspect Gothos conceived Iccy BEFORE going into the House.

- Abyss, figures that was one hell of a going away party...

[Locke Reaper]

Following the thread it could mean that gothos was the creator of the nameless ones. why else would they be so damn obsessed with Iccy. Maybe Gothos became the godfather of the azath and only comes out to play when the stakes are right.