[Seed]

Now the new Azath house has sprouted in the room of gates, the antechamber to starvald demelain, I must wonder if the soul used to power the growth has any relation to the aspect of the Azath house once they're grown. Is the Azath house in Darujhistan now the icehouse given it sprouted from the finnest of Raest. Is the new Azath aspected to shadow, given that it's growth is fueled by the very soul of Kurald Emurlahnis. As the new house is expected to engulf the twelve gates to the original realms/warrens eventually, I can easily imagine it taking part in the potential re-re-healing of the sundered warren in future books.

Perhaps the currents or flow...draw perhaps, imparted by having twelve gates to the newly anchored refugium realm through chaos from the others, will allow the wandering non-anchored warren fragments to migrate in the direction of this new loadstone for shadow aspected power and fuse back into one? Or perhaps it's aspected to Tellan considering it's proximity and purpose in relation to the refugium.

Seed -crazy, like shadowthrone. mwahahaha

[Flawed]

ha ha mwa ha ha haaaaaaaa!

Interesting point you've sprouted there.

Sprouts!!! Eaarrgh! Actually i quite like them. Bad gas later though! Amen to that!

I do like this theory. If its going to be soul aspected then the one in the refugium is surely going to have a few confusing issues. " Shall i wear the red dress " or " shall i wear the brown trousers " type of thing going on. Having Kettle and Scabby in the mix on this Azath.

Kettle was stabbed with the Finnest holding Scabbys soul. I expect it is her souls it takes after and Scabby is either trapped within the Azath house as the Guardian or in a nice mound somewhere.

I like the idea of it creating a base or a starting point for all other parts of the sundered warren to come together to.

Its a big part of the story that KE needs to be healed. This theory is the only one ive seen that could give us an avenue to do that.

NIce one.

[Obdigore]

@Flawed, i disagree. It was scabbys soul-power used to build the azath house. Kettle was just a vessel to get the seed of the azath house there.
Remember when it was found that she had the soul of a ... jesus cannot remember the name.... multiple jointed limbs... calm... serenity... cities destroyed by dragons... bah, Soul of one of those creatures. Which, everyone agrees on, is a child of Kil. Plus the soul of scabby, a soletaken elient that shattered KE.

So you are bringing together the blood of the great guardian of KE, and the soul of the one who shattered it. To heal it. I think those two souls (neither of who's, are technically Kettles, that I understand) mingle together to create the new, KE-healing azath.

[Flawed]

@ Obdigore

perhaps i remembered it all wrong then.

Although the whole trip and quest for the Finnest was for Ruin to get ultimate justice. By having Scabby imprisoned within an Azath like he was.

The seed of the Azath was inside Kettle and when stabbed by the Finnest the Azath answered the need to restrain the power and came into being using Kettles souls ( Forkrul Assail and something esle ) to power its being.

Otherwise the whole thing was kinda pointless as Ruin wanted to imprison Scabby like he did to him.

[Seed]

Forkrul Assail is what you're thinking of Obdigore...hmmm interesting point, although I don't know if Kilmandaros having a go at saving KE is enough to grant all her children a minor affinity? to shadow. She may be a ex-guardian of the first rehealing, but her title hasn't granted her any powers over shadow IMO, other than any potential tricks she picked up herself while hanging around in KE.

I'd guess kettle is simply a vehicle for the seed. Although the idea of the Azath requiring a seed in the first place is interesting, Darujhistan's Azath didn't require anything more than the finnest.

Although in this case, as Flawed mentions, Ruin's purpose was to imprison Scabandri, presumably the soul of the Forkul Assail was the seed of power to fuel the growth and it will become the new guardian leaving Scabandri twined amongst the foundation roots for the next eon, trapped.

Seed -sprouting ideas

Hmm on further thought, given the FA's burning obsession with balance, it's quite believable that the trapped FA in the dying/dead lether Azath arranged for it's soul to be tapped as fuel and guardian for a new Azath/replacement...thus maintaining the balance. Hence easing passage/inahbitation of kettle. acceptance of it's purpose.

[Obdigore]

Flawed;204368 said:

@ Obdigore

perhaps i remembered it all wrong then.

Although the whole trip and quest for the Finnest was for Ruin to get ultimate justice. By having Scabby imprisoned within an Azath like he was.

The seed of the Azath was inside Kettle and when stabbed by the Finnest the Azath answered the need to restrain the power and came into being using Kettles souls ( Forkrul Assail and something esle ) to power its being.

Otherwise the whole thing was kinda pointless as Ruin wanted to imprison Scabby like he did to him.

No. Read the end of RG. Ruin's quest to take kettle, and scandab's finnest, and merge them in that place was given to him by the dying Azath in Lether.

He admits that vengance often gets tainted, and he would not have done such a thing, despite the fact that he wanted too, if he had not agreed to have done it in return for being let out of the azath house.

We were supposed to think that Ruin was just trying to get back at Scandy, he wasn't. He was on a quest for the dying (now dead) Azath house in Lether.

edit - I would not have remembered this, except I finished another re-read of RG last night, and this was one of the parts that jumped out at me as having missed. Its just 2 lines in a monologue Ruin is having with himself before he sembles to the dragon to go 'expunge' lether.

[ch'arlz]

Seed;204369 said:

Although the idea of the Azath requiring a seed in the first place is interesting, Darujhistan's Azath didn't require anything more than the finnest.

which was in the form of an acorn.

-ch'arlz

[Seed]

ch said:

which was in the form of an acorn.

-ch'arlz

...damn, this is the reason why I shouldn't post drunk at 2 o'clock in the morning. I miss the staring you in the face obvious things. If anyone wants me I'll be back in my corner.

It does raise interesting thoughts about conceptual seeds though. Why was a seed shaped finnest enough to spark the growth in GotM, when we require Kettle and a finnest in RG(albiet tooth shaped and not acorn shaped). Maybe it's got something to do with where it's growing. There are already Azath rooted to Wu as it were. The Azath in Darujhistan could be like a shoot popping up near the trunks of an already existing tree. It just needed the sniff of unclaimed power buried in the dirt to trigger the growth. Whereas the new Azath that is rooted into the chamber of gates/refugium, no previous Azath anywhere near by. Maybe Kettle was needed as extra oomph or a locator beacon of sorts for the Azath to umm tunnel through chaos and link up to the new stabilised realm.

[Rat Mentor]

I'm sure that the Shadow Keep is in fact a Azath House. That would make it an Azath House aspected to Shadow. It's mentioned in one of the books that an Azath House stopped the realm from breaking apart.....

Trying to find the quote....

[Locke Reaper]

The azath does seem to be linked with shadow through out the series. It was through their travels in the azath that dancer and the emperor ascended to the shadow realm.

It might be that the azath was created to prevent another sundering of other realms and thus contains a part of KE. And there fore the shadow realm of rope and shadowthrone is not merely the gate house but rather the gaurd house to the original shadow realm

[Dolorous Menhir]

Rat Mentor;204515 said:

I'm sure that the Shadow Keep is in fact a Azath House. That would make it an Azath House aspected to Shadow. It's mentioned in one of the books that an Azath House stopped the realm from breaking apart.....

Trying to find the quote....

It doesn't bear any resemblance to any of the other Azath we've seen, which all share the same appearance (a small house in a garden). The Shadow Keep seemed more like some kind of giant castle, which rules out it being the Shadow Azath as far as I can tell. It is more likely to be a Tiste Edur artefact from the time before the Sundering.

[ShadowOwl]

In NoK 'Shadow House, heart of shadow', is described as a heap of smokey quartz crystals....hynotizing...like answers to all questions..... so I don't think it can be azath at all either.

Any ideas on which azath house was killed by Icarium and what it's aspect/warren was? I think it was the one in the jagh odhan that Phyris/tree was later attached to, but the aspect of the house was never told and Gothos specifically says Icarium wounded the warren in that fight which destroyed his memory.

Do you think there could have been a warren of time and if it is wounded, is that why the shattered sister warren, shadow, wanders and can be in two places at the same time, and can this explain the convergences where time overlaps? and maybe some of the SE timelines anomolies we question?

[Aptorian]

The Shadow castle we see ST in, couldn't that be the physical manifestation, of the House of Shadow?

Then again there oughta be a throne in there then, I don't remember what's the shadowwarren called again? is it's throne sitting in ST's keep?

[Obdigore]

Have we all forgotten that its mentioned (and no I do not remember where) that kell and dancer might be operating out of the shadow realm's Gatehouse?

[dktorode]

Yes i remember that yet i too cannot pin point were i read it...
They are only rulers of the fragment that holds the "entrance" to the Realm of shadow!

[Dujek One Arm]

If ST and Cotillion's realm is only the gatehouse, what were the tiste edur after in The Bonhunters. I remember that they tried taking it before but Andarist died defending it. They came back for it in TBH's with Icarium to take it but ST had made the throne look destroyed. Was that the throne of shadow or just some other throne like the one Kellanved used to make the Logros t'Ian Imass do his bidding????:confused: :confused:

[Obdigore]

Dujek One Arm;204747 said:

If ST and Cotillion's realm is only the gatehouse, what were the tiste edur after in The Bonhunters. I remember that they tried taking it before but Andarist died defending it. They came back for it in TBH's with Icarium to take it but ST had made the throne look destroyed. Was that the throne of shadow or just some other throne like the one Kellanved used to make the Logros t'Ian Imass do his bidding????:confused: :confused:

That was a throne, thought to be the throne of shadow, on that island-mabobber. The Edur's were not assaulting Kell and Dancers' fragment of shadow.

[ch'arlz]

Dujek One Arm;204747 said:

If ST and Cotillion's realm is only the gatehouse,

I'm assuming that when Obdigore said "kell and dancer might be operating out of the shadow realm's Gatehouse," he didn't mean that's the extent of their realm. Recall from HoC that ST and Cotillion are staying under the radar of other Gods while they consolidate positions and pursue long-range ambitions to take over yet more thrones.

-ch'arlz

[Obdigore]

Brings up a good point Ch'arlz...

Why am I thinking its edgewalker who tells Dancer around (before or after) they have a chat with the 3 dragons...

Edgewalker tells cot something like 'the throne of shadow isn't even in this realm'
And cot responds 'And is shadowthrone?'
Edgewalker : 'An interesting distinction.'

Or some such. Since my bonehunters has vanished, could someone check that for me?

Is that why shadowthrone appears so 'shadowy'? Not because hes shadowthrone, but because he is in multiple different warrens/warren fragments?

[Mael]

The current warren of shadow, meanas, is the gateway to Kurald Emurlahn much in the same way that Thyr and Rashan are possible gateways into Kurald Thyrllan and Kurald Gallain (if it weren't sealed) respectively. Due to Shadow's sundered nature it is more vulnerable to invasion which is exactly how ST and Cot usurped it in the first place. During a conjunction of events on malaz island a large fragment of KE overlapped with the Deadhouse (Azath aspected to the hold of death) allowing them to enter the realm and claim the throne (a shadow of the true throne of KE) for themselves.

This was what was meant when it was mentioned that ST and Cot ruled the Gatehouse to the true realm of shadow.

The throne that was being defended by the Andarist and his Tiste Andii (as well as Cutter and Not-Apsalar) that was subsequently made to look destroyed by ST after the Andii left and the Edur returned with Icarium was the true throne of Kurald Emurlahn. If i remember correctly it was hidden on Drift Avalii by Anomander Rake who charged his brother and the remaining Andii to protect it. This most likely occured some time after the final sundering of KE and was Rakes way to ensure that the throne remained unoccupied. This is why Edgewalker claimed that the Throne was not in fact in the realm of shadow.

The throne that was being defended by Trull, Onrack, QB, the Imass and Minalla and her children in the pocket realm was the Throne of the beast hold. Apparently ST and Cot have a vested intrest in keeping it unoccupied for the moment.

Note: Yes i know Togg and Fand lay claim to the beast hold but remember that, as per FWs casting of the Tiles, they don't in fact sit the throne but that the throne is in fact a physical representation of thier power, or in her words..."they are the throne". This means that the "throne" still requires someone to sit on it. I don't think we've seen the last of Toc the Unlucky.

As for the Azath themselves, they seem to be aspected to specific holds as opposed to the warrens. They are created to trap and control powerful out of control beings in order to maintain a balance of some kind. We have seen 2 arise so far, both of which came into being through a series of seemingly unrelated events that culminated in the creation of an azath by bringing together a seed and the need for it to trap a finnest which contained a great deal of power.