[lasombra]

Do u guys rate Certain warrens r more powerfull than others?

or do they work more like the elements?ie' water > fire etc? each has his own weakness?

[Aptorian]

lasombra;203174 said:

Do u guys rate Certain warrens r more powerfull than others?

or do they work more like the elements?ie' water > fire etc? each has his own weakness?

It's hard to say, isn't it? They have different qualities. Some we haven't seen used that much, others are distinctly different from the rest.

How do you compage denul to death? Or Serc to Ruse or Tenes (that's earth right?)?

Personally, after what we saw Kulp do in DG and what Seren Pedac was up to in MT and RG, I think Mocra might be the most powerful warren of them all.

I get the destinct impression that with a strong enough mind the user could do pretty much anything, the mind is litterally the limitation. The other's seem to be about channeling through the flesh while Mocra seems a thought dependant thing.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't think we can build up a rock-paper-scissors system of what beats what. That's not the way it works.

The relative strength of the magic users seems the more important factor, not the particular colour of magic they use (we should adopt Beak's terms).

For example, Karsa's "Toblakai warren" seems to beat everything. But the picture is not as simple as that - it's like an impregnable personal defence. It's not capable of producing magic waves, fireballs, lightning bolts, as true magic users rely on. It's not offensive in nature.

[lasombra]

"They entered the command tent. She sensed immediately the presence of power, what Calot called smell. It made his eyes water. It gave her a migraine headache, This particular emanation was a power she knew well, and it was anathema to her own.

- Tattersail nears Tayschrenn. Her warren is Thyr (light), his is Telas (fire). Seems unlikely one would be anathema to the other? (GotM, UK mmpb p.63)


hmmm suggests that certain warrens have "effects" on others?

[GardenGnome]

The whole thing with mages getting headaches from each other was dropped after GotM, so I wouldn't read too much into it...

[Neffarias Muffins]

GardenGnome;203224 said:

The whole thing with mages getting headaches from each other was dropped after GotM, so I wouldn't read too much into it...

Well, either that, or it was only Tattersail who got migraines.

[GardenGnome]

It's mentioned several times throughout GotM, but never again later, as far as I can remember.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Toc the Middle Child;203225 said:

Well, either that, or it was only Tattersail who got migraines.

Baruk had them too. Though you could chalk that up to close proximity to Rake & Dragnipur, it seemed to be more of a general reaction to power.

It does seem to have been dropped in later books, as Garden Gnome notes. I can't think of any Malazan squad mages suffering from it in BH or RG, for example. Based on GotM alone, you would assume every single mage had a migraine when close to another, but that's definitely not the case in the later books.

Lasombra's quote does suggest an antagonism between warrens. But again, it clearly seems to be another GotMism.

[GRIEF & VENEGEANCE]

Hi everyone

This is a really interesting question. I know that in NoK Tayschrenn also suffers from a similar problem (headaches and bleeding nose if I remember correctly) when in the presence of a near-ascendant. If it is a phenomenon that is prevalent beyond NoK and GoTM, then I think its a slightly more complex scenario.

I think it has to do with an individual's level of actual power, type of power, the potential for power, as well as the route to ascendant power. Tayschrenn is an incredibly powerful mage (he fought Anomander Rake to a standstill at Pale). He was the High Mage in charge of all mage cadres in the Malazan Empire (back when there were enough High mages in the Empire to actually form cadres with), but he is still not an ascendant. I also think that Tayschrenn has become more powerful than he was in NoK since his contest with Rake was basically a stalemate.

So when he is in the presence of an ascendant who is a more powerul mage than him then he will feel a certain amount of pressure. If he were in the presence of an ascendant who ascended due to matrial prowess (there are after all many paths to ascendancy) then he might not feel that pressure. I think that Tayschrenn was much more powerful than Tattersail, hence Tattersail's headaches.

My theory doesn't really do much when placed in context of BH and RG, but I want to have a go in any case. Maybe the reason why Bottle doesn't suffer headaches in the presence of Quick Ben is because they practise different forms of magic, or because he is more Holds focused or also because when they met he was half asleep and under the influence or the Eres. Or is it because they are equally powerful?

There also aren't that many powerful mages around anymore (or at least in the books that have been writen so far) so maybe the reason we haven't seen more of this power induced pressure/headaches is because the characters are mostly equal in power, or there haven't been many sorcerous ascendants around medium strength High Mages.

This is an epic series though so I may have missed something that is glaringly obvious.

[Blacksox]

Dolorous Menhir;203247 said:

Baruk had them too. Though you could chalk that up to close proximity to Rake & Dragnipur, it seemed to be more of a general reaction to power.

It does seem to have been dropped in later books, as Garden Gnome notes. I can't think of any Malazan squad mages suffering from it in BH or RG, for example. Based on GotM alone, you would assume every single mage had a migraine when close to another, but that's definitely not the case in the later books.

Lasombra's quote does suggest an antagonism between warrens. But again, it clearly seems to be another GotMism.

I states in GOTM that Tays gives Tatter headaches because his warren is inimical to hers.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Blacksox;203273 said:

I states in GOTM that Tays gives Tatter headaches because his warren is inimical to hers.

That's right. The relevant passage is in comment 4 in this thread. And when lasombra provided the passage in that comment, he was quoting an entry I wrote in the wiki. I was responding to that fact in the post you quoted.

Thanks for the reminder though.

[L'oric]

"He saw in Bottle coruscating waves of raw power, a refulgence devoid of all control -but that would come. It will come." -Fiddlers point of view during the Beak sacrifice.

Now I am not going to lie I had to look up refulgence. Does this make Bottle is a high mage in waiting? How many hidden High mages might be in the Bonehunters? It has to be an inordinantly high amount compared to every other company in the brief history of the Malazan empire. Beak, Sinn, Bottle? Quick Ben (sort of tossed between Bridgeburners and Bonehunters. All from the rank and file. Not to mention a shadow dancer in Lostara Yil, a Talon in Throatslitter. Grub the next leader of the Wickans. Gesler and Stormy and whats left of the Boar cult. Its not Letheras like yet but they sure are getting close.
PS
I want Bottle to be a high mage just because he had the line of the book "Allow us to introduce ourselves."

[wintermute]

Nobody's mentioned this yet, but I would assume that elder warrens are stronger than new ones (if they all aren't equal), if nothing else because they can resist otataral. Also, I doubt all warrens are similar and only limited by the mind of the mage, as someone brought up earlier. For example, I doubt someone could destroy an army with Denul as they could with chaos. And as long as I mentioned chaos, that's probably another strong one. I don't see any real supremacy for Mockra. The destructive effect it had with Seren Padec would probably be pretty easy to beat with another warren. after all, it didn't even kill Clip

[Locke Reaper]

I don't really think that the elder warrens are more powerful to mortals. Its likeit has been said earlier in this thread, the strenght comes from the mage therefore the more he can channel the more powerful the warren appears.

Just a thought on the conflicting warrens, i think beak is a pretty clear cut example that this is not the case,even quick. a mage like beak who can access all the warrens would have ripped himself to shreds if warrens had an instinctive reaction to one another...

[Silencer]

I think bottle doesn't feel anything around Quick Ben because Quick is always hiding his power, now when Baruk got his headache in Rake's presence Rake was using his warren to levitate - this would mean an active accessing. Of course this could also be a GOTMism, but might explain the other books. And I don't think Bottle is quite equal to QB

Spoiler

See Quick owning Menandore and co, then Silchas Ruin.

Interesting thread guys!

[lasombra]

main thing here is dont u think u can use certain warrens to counter other warrens for example like " i use Tellan to make a fire ball and then u use Ruse to extinguish it"

Like certain warrens have a greater effect on others, It makes sense i mean the warrens basicly cover the "elements"

[Flawed]

lasombra;203328 said:

main thing here is dont u think u can use certain warrens to counter other warrens for example like " i use Tellan to make a fire ball and then u use Ruse to extinguish it"

Like certain warrens have a greater effect on others, It makes sense i mean the warrens basicly cover the "elements"

I see what you are saying. There always has to be balance. It is a main point of the books also.

I'm not sure that Warrens when employed by an individual are that important in this balance though. They are tiny branches when employed in this manner and so there can be no real opposites to effect balance.

The entire Warren by itself Verses another could be however, but this isn't something that happens.

I think the only way that power can be measured in this Warren argument individually, is by the wielder themselves. It certainly depends on the strength of will, mind and character of the individual making the whole Warren v Warren thing null and void.

Its Mage V Mage.

[Mezla PigDog]

I think the power of a warren is determined by it's user. Not only the "amount" of the warren that they can physically control but also the ways in which they can think of to use it. In this way, if a weaker mage is smarter than a more powerful one, the powerful one can be beaten. Otherwise brute force would win all the time and the books would be more traditional fantasy.

[ch'arlz]

Mezla PigDog;203331 said:

I think the power of a warren is determined by it's user. Not only the "amount" of the warren that they can physically control but also the ways in which they can think of to use it. In this way, if a weaker mage is smarter than a more powerful one, the powerful one can be beaten. Otherwise brute force would win all the time and the books would be more traditional fantasy.

I think this is probably the correct way to view it. As one example, QB refers to the warren of Ruse as "the hardest to master" (MoI Tor mmpb p.742). And mastery implies the ability to adjust power levels, viz transporting troops and impedimenta across the river using multiple pristine warrens (MoI Tor mmpb p.688):

Quote

The unveiling of power here is precisely intended to kick the hornet nests. Both of them! Clumsily massive, an appalling absence of subtlety.

[Abyss]

I tend to think it's a matter of individual power and skill, more than specific warren. Tays stood against Rake, and that's a human aspected warren v an elder warren conflict right there.

I wonder whether Tattersail's ref to Tays' warren being inimical was a ref to his use of Aral Gamelon (demon summoning, which QB ref'd as close to Hood's path in MoI), as opposed to Telan.

Admittedly it could be a GotMism, but we saw Calot use his Mokra warren to shield Tattersail in that book, while in DG Kulp, a 'mere' cadre mage, uses Meanas, which seems an insubstantial warren in terms of physical power, to sheild Heboric, Baudin and himself from a sandstorm (Felisin notes his protection didn't help her).

Meanas, Rashan and Thyr have all been ref'd as related, amd Mokra seems to link to them as well. Kuralds Galain and Thyrllan seem like they should logicall be opposed, but Emulahn seems to derive from the interaction of both. Plus while Meanas has a physical space and Rashan seems to as well, we've never seen a ref to Thyr having one, and it seemed clear from MT that Mokra doesn't.

So it would seem to moi that there is no hard and fast rule re one warren trumping another, as even specific warrens have mutiplicity of uses and 'interpretations'.

- Abyss, note that in any event, Wolverine would trump any of them