[Shanks]

I got a bit confused in RG by the general 'power ranking'. Besides Quick going berserk as discussed elsewhere, the thing that didn't fit for me was Kilava threatening Silchas in the Refugium.

I know she also took out the few undead kccm that killed Treach without a sweat, but so far I always had the impression that she was a just a regular bonecaster. Not ageing for some infathomable reason, and maybe slightly stronger than your average bonecaster, but not Eleint-threatening.

Did I miss something in her tone? Was it just a bluff and did I read too much in it? Or does she have some source of power I completely missed?

[Obdigore]

Bonecaster + living thousands of years = a bit of power.

Plus, I doubt Ruin could have sembled in the cave, which means he can only use his swords, and he was just about beat by, in his mind, some random mortal. I don't think Ruin Vs Kilava would be pretty, and I cannot decide who would win, but the fight would be much closer than you seem to be thinking.

As an addendum, I don't think Ruin even knew she was there until he almost stumbled across her, which means she would certainly have gotten the first blow(s) in, which can be huge in the Malazan wolrd (Where everyone seems to have massive offense, and use that offense as their defence...)

[Mulch]

Kilava is very powerful due to:

Onrak's cave painting which i took to being on a par with the tanno spirit walkers song.
She's mortal rather than dessicated (silverfox is uber powerful due to being flesh and blood bonecaster)
She's a bonecaster
Her Soletaken form is a giant panther (emlava) the cubs of which gave menandore a fright

[Abyss]

Y"know, i never really considered whether nrack's painting would have a similar effect to the Tanno song, or more accurately, whether that could be the basis for ascendency, her status as a soletaken bonecaster aside.

It certainly seems the pic held great significance to the Imass, being forbidden, and Kilava then proceeding to massacre her entire family because of it.

In any event, whether she could have taken Silchas or not, i'm certain that faced with the possibility of Silch killing Onrack and their son just as she's reuniting with them, Kilava absolutely MEANT what she said and would have put every twinkle of power she had behind it if it had come to a fight.

- Abyss, twinkle, twinkle, little panther...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kilava was ready to take down Pannion solo, at the end of MoI. She is very powerful.

[Mael]

Abyss;199692 said:

Y"know, i never really considered whether nrack's painting would have a similar effect to the Tanno song, or more accurately, whether that could be the basis for ascendency, her status as a soletaken bonecaster aside.

It certainly seems the pic held great significance to the Imass, being forbidden, and Kilava then proceeding to massacre her entire family because of it.

The whole point of the Onrack, Kilava, Sha'ik storyline hinges on the fact that Onrack's painting of Kilava allowed her to Ascend and become immortal. Since she was already immortal she did not need the ritual of T'lan and destroyed her entire clan with the exception of her brother (who drove her off) so she would not be compeled to join the ritual.

Quote

In any event, whether she could have taken Silchas or not, i'm certain that faced with the possibility of Silch killing Onrack and their son just as she's reuniting with them, Kilava absolutely MEANT what she said and would have put every twinkle of power she had behind it if it had come to a fight.

- Abyss, twinkle, twinkle, little panther...

As for her reletive level of power, we have seen various bonecasters throughout the series and they have all been increadibly powerful. These bonecasters have one and all been T'lan Imass. Kilava, like silverfox, is a flesh and blood bonecaster and an ascended one at that making her that much more powerful then your average T'lan Imass bonecaster. Add in the fact that she is the mother of ALL humanity (something generally in the realm of the gods, like killmandaros) and you can see that she has significant sources of potential power available to her.

Kilava, much like the Eres'al, is often depicted as a matron-like character. Increadibly beautiful and sensual but in an almost motherly way, inciting Oedipus style lust in the male readers and reinforcing her almost god like role as the Eve of the Human race.

Could she had killed Silchas Ruin?? It is more then likely, in the situation that they were in, that she would have.

[Abyss]

Mael;199694 said:

The whole point of the Onrack, Kilava, Sha'ik storyline hinges on the fact that Onrack's painting of Kilava allowed her to Ascend and become immortal. Since she was already immortal she did not need the ritual of T'lan and destroyed her entire clan with the exception of her brother (who drove her off) so she would not be compeled to join the ritual.

Nope. She was already a soletaken bonecaster. She didn't need the Ritual. Soletaken are already pretty much age-proof (see First Empire survivors).

The Bonecasters were necessary to cast the Ritual, but they wouldn't have been as at risk as the rest of the Imass clans (altho given the apparent links, they probably would not have outlived their clans by much of the Jaghut had extinctinized them).

As for "Add in the fact that she is the mother of ALL humanity ", that was Drynhja raving in suitably lunatic fashion. Given that we've identified her son as living in the Refugim, we don't actually KNOW this, beyond the most general 'humanity descended from Imass' sort of theory.

- Abyss, agrees with the rest of your post.

[Dr Trouble]

She birthed all of humanity, she has MAD prowess.

She must have been very sore afterwards.

[GanoesParan00]

besides, in MoI, in the prologue, she destroyed her entire tribe to get "free" (don't remember why). so if she could do that all by her self she's quite powerful.

[Abyss]

@Trouble - LOL.

@GP - one theory is because she was pregnant with Onrack's kid (and considering they just sheboinged the night before, WOW, his boys can SWIM! - unless ihave that wrong and first she saw the pic, then she off'd her clan and THEN sheboinged Onrack, in which case, WOW her ovaries are precognative!). Another is that she was so touched by his pic that she refused to give up emotion/etc for the Ritual. Or some combo of both.

It's too ho'd win to really speculate whether she could have taken Silch, then specifically or ever, but she's certainly powerful enough to have made it a fight.

- Abyss, notes that in any event, Wolverine could take them both. While drunk. With one hand tied behind his back. While being tortured by Jack Bauer. Naked. I mean, Wolverine is naked, not Jack... wait, no,,, i mean... ummm.... oh, leave me alone.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

I think Kilava is supposed to be exrtremely powerful due to all the things she's done KCCM etc. and I think she could have taken Silchas in the cave.
We all know that Silchas is very touchy and I think after Kilava threatened him like that he would have killed her, had he been able to.

[Mael]

Abyss;199725 said:

@Trouble - LOL.

@GP - one theory is because she was pregnant with Onrack's kid (and considering they just sheboinged the night before, WOW, his boys can SWIM! - unless ihave that wrong and first she saw the pic, then she off'd her clan and THEN sheboinged Onrack, in which case, WOW her ovaries are precognative!). Another is that she was so touched by his pic that she refused to give up emotion/etc for the Ritual. Or some combo of both.

It's too ho'd win to really speculate whether she could have taken Silch, then specifically or ever, but she's certainly powerful enough to have made it a fight.

- Abyss, notes that in any event, Wolverine could take them both. While drunk. With one hand tied behind his back. While being tortured by Jack Bauer. Naked. I mean, Wolverine is naked, not Jack... wait, no,,, i mean... ummm.... oh, leave me alone.

One thing i remember is that during Sha'iks rant at the end of HoC where we finally discover who she is, she speaks about Kilava and Onrack and i believe she mentions that Kilava was motivated to defy the summons because of the new race growing inside of her.

[Aptorian]

Are we sure Soletaken are immortal? I mean supposedly the first empire residents had found ways of cheating death and knew the paths to ascendancy. The beast part might not give immortality... or is it the soletaken form that is the road to ascendancy?

Anyway, the thing that bothered me about the whole Ruin vs. guardians in the cave thing was Ruins supposedly badass power. Does Rake and Ruin need to veer to use the full force of KG or can they make Quick Ben type forceblasts like the mage does in MoI?

The guy is the son of darkness, he rips an entire keep in half earlier in the book. Why didn't he just blast the flesh of Trull and move on...? I thought the guy was supposed to be a cold draconean, not a touchy feely "spare life if he can"-type person. never mind that surprised thing that went between them at first look.

[Mulch]

They don't need to veer, Rake uses KG in GOTM

[Flawed]

Aptorian;200702 said:

Anyway, the thing that bothered me about the whole Ruin vs. guardians in the cave thing was Ruins supposedly badass power. Does Rake and Ruin need to veer to use the full force of KG or can they make Quick Ben type forceblasts like the mage does in MoI?

The guy is the son of darkness, he rips an entire keep in half earlier in the book. Why didn't he just blast the flesh of Trull and move on...? I thought the guy was supposed to be a cold draconean, not a touchy feely "spare life if he can"-type person. never mind that surprised thing that went between them at first look.

I think apt may of ment SD not KG.

Mulch;200712 said:

They don't need to veer, Rake uses KG in GOTM

KG they can use anytime as that is their aspected Warren. The SD come from the Dragon in them.

[Dark Mac]

Spite uses SD just fine without veering.

[Illuyankas]

Dark Mac;200864 said:

Spite uses SD just fine without veering.

Is there somewhere else she uses it, apart from the prologue? As I really can't remember.

Also 2000 posts. I am the hugest nerd.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas;200875 said:

Also 2000 posts. I am the hugest nerd.

Yeah. Get a life.

[Illuyankas]

Second hugest- Thir-

OK, I'm a bit down in the rankings.

[Dancer+]

No surprise Simeon is first really

Well done on your 2000th post (that counts), huge landmark really.