[Abyss]

For other thread, re BOURNE movies...

Tiste Simeon;198337 said:

I'd like to read the books actually, cos I do enjoy the films...

Do NOT expect the books to be like the films. Seriously. Way WAY different. Thin plot similarity in first book/film, and from there it's only the name that even resembles.

That being said, as a series of books about a cold-war era counter terrorist spy uber dude, the first three are totally worthwhile. I always thought Bourne was one of Ludlun's best characters and storylines. Most of his other spies just felt like Bourne-lite.

I haven't read the Lustbader authored later books. Am sceptical.

- Abyss, can beat you to death with a rolled up magazine.

[Abyss]

On another totally not Bourne-related thread, Gem Windy posted...

Gem Windcaster;198356 said:

I actually think the books are even more awesome than the movies. Or rather, I like the books in another way than I like the movies. In the books you get much more background stories. And Abyss, I dont' agree about the crazed paramilitary assassin cyborg thiny - as much bad ass as he is in the movies, the Jason Bourne in the books is far more motivated, and far more self destructive in some ways. But hmmm...in other ways the Bourne in the movies is more self-destructive. Hmm, I don't think I am making any sense, but at least I tried.

Actually, you are. Ish. Sort of.

The point being, naturally, books are more in depth than movies. But here, you have an in depth book about a complex character who happens to be uber-spy undercover assassin guy.

But in the books he does not get up to the kind of adrenaline gymkata parcour craziness that Damon does in the movies. There are guns, fights and chases, but it's not the point - Bourne's mindfnck and attempts to deal are the point.

- Abyss, notes that Cussler and Brown are amongst the rare authors, imnsho, who ever truly pull off 'cinematic' car chases and gunfights in books.

[Falco]

Abyss;198361 said:

- Abyss, notes that Cussler and Brown are amongst the rare authors, imnsho, who ever truly pull off 'cinematic' car chases and gunfights in books.

Yer trying really hard Abyss. Props for that.

But to further drag a thread off topic, the best author at doing action scenes, blockbuster action scenes in a book has to be Mat Reilly. Best I've ever read at writing those.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The first Bourne book was good, and the film only strongly differed from it because some story elements were dated (the Cold War, Carlos the Jackal).

The second and third were utterly unoriginal, standard "airport-novel" fare. Haven't read the ones by the other author.

A question that annoyed me (plot spoiler):

Spoiler

Was anyone else annoyed that he never revealed who Carlos was? I reckon it was Rene Bergeron, but it's almost like he forgot to follow up on the scene in book 1 (where Bourne recognised Carlos as someone he'd seen earlier in the book) with any later reveal for the reader in the series.

[Abyss]

uuummm...

SPOILERS FOR THE BOURNE BOOKS
SPOILERS SPOILERS WILL JAM A
SPOILERS ROLLED UP MAG IN YOUR
SPOILERS MOUTH AND CHOKE YOU
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Spoiler

Not sure what you mean. Carlos was resolved in the third book in the finale.

I liked the second and third books. #2 forced him to become the bastard he didn't want to be, and #3 resolved the Carlos plot and even sort of provided an end point to the Cold War by forcing Bourne and the soviets to work together.


@Falco - mat reilly noted.
- Abyss, cold warrior. with a snowball.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ok,

Spoiler

he was dealt with at the end of book three. But it was never stated who his other identity in the books was.

[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;198384 said:

Ok,

Spoiler

he was dealt with at the end of book three. But it was never stated who his other identity in the books was.

I could be utterly wrong here, as it's been a while since i read them, but...

Spoiler

...iirc, he never appeared in the other books, secret identity or otherwise. The Bourne identity (pun intended) was created to nail Carlos but he never got the chance until #3.

- Abyss, aka Abyss.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ok, ok, but:

Spoiler

at the of book 1 when Carlos fights Bourne in the Treadstone house, Bourne sees his face and clearly thinks "I've seen you before under a different name". And it's never resolved which earlier character was actually Carlos' alter ego. That's what I'm complaining about.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Falco;198363 said:

Yer trying really hard Abyss. Props for that.

But to further drag a thread off topic, the best author at doing action scenes, blockbuster action scenes in a book has to be Mat Reilly. Best I've ever read at writing those.

damn you Falco! i had the exact same thought. the boat chase in Temple in partiular springs to mind, but all of them are practically written as stage directions for filming. and they're great for it. Still, have rep for mentioning the creator of Scarecrow.

Coco, wishes he had a cool callsign...

[Abyss]

@Dol'Men -oh, i see. Okay, i see your point, tho' it never bothered me. I took that as Bourne remembering previous dealings and fighting his headwound inspired amnesia.

- Abyss, or am i?

[Gem Windcaster]

Abyss, for me, the Bourne in the books are far more deadly (when properly motivated) than the Bourne in the movies. I hope this will be rectified by the new movie.

I've read the books about 5 times. Or something like it. Heh. I guess it's all subjective though.

Spoiler

But if you consider the persona of Delta, anything that is depicted in the movies so far, is quite lame. And the first move: the book-bourne could probably kick the movie-bourne's ass. Or maybe that is saying too much. it's two different medium after all. I am just saying. Why did I put this in spoiler tags again?

I like the second book best. I still enjoy the first novel though. The third I only read when I have read the other two and still have Bourne-abstinence. Well, because I've read them so many times. Still I get the chills when I read the 'Move!' comment.

And you are right about the Lustbader novel, a third into the book I wanted to puke.

- Gem, likes to be called 'windy' (sorry for stealing your signature style, Abyss, but I feel like being a bit Bourne atm )


Edit: to all of you that didn't get the storyline read the books again. It's all there FTW!

[Dag]

Funny nobody mentioned the old Bourne movie (or was it a mini-series?) with Richard Chamberlain. That's the only one I've seen (it was yeeeears ago) and afterwards I had absolutely no wish to read the books, although my Grandma, who was a great Ludlum fan, swore they were worth reading. Pitty that Granny is not in this world anymore, I bet she would have fallen in love with Matt Damon as Bourne...

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Spoiler

This is fun. Almost a whole thread in spoilers.

[Abyss]

Dag;198479 said:

Funny nobody mentioned the old Bourne movie (or was it a mini-series?) with Richard Chamberlain....

It's funny you mention those. To my utterly uncertain recollection, it was a mini series (at least i saw it on tv). SO mediocre, but relatively closer to the books than the Damon movies.

The Damon movuies are good fun - they just have no resemblance to the books. Which is probably just as well, because the books spend a lot of time inside Bourne's head, and that's something a movie really cannot do.

@GWindy, i can't really do a book v movie ho'd win with any seriousness, but most of the fights in the books are fast and brutal - something Damon sort of does but with movie flash and bang. I never found action sequences to be Ludlun's strong suit - it was more in the setting tension and characters in fncked up situations that his books are great. My other fave of his, THE ICARUS AGENDA, is amazing almost because the protag is not a spy, but a person stuck in their world.

- Abyss, not a spy but plays one on tv.

[Gem Windcaster]

Yes, I know books and movies are hard to compare, so I don't compare action that much between the medium. I compare character to some degree, but not a total comparison can be made, as you say.

Abyss, I can agree on the action sequences - but only vaguely. I've never missed any action in the Bourne books. Yes, I can see (when I think hard) that there could be more action. But then I've never been a big fan of over-use of action sequences. And neither do I compare the Bourne books with the action genre as much as a compare it to Authors like John le Carré. Or Greene.

The violence in the Bourne books as just as much, or more, psychological than physical.

However, since the character and his psyche is much more described in the books, it quite naturally follows that also he seems more violent. Why this effect occurs, I am guessing is because of the psychological influence on the reader/viewer. When you watch a bunch of people wring their enemies necks on the screen, you can be disgusted, but the mere fact of neck wringing doesn't effect you as deep as when you fully understand what the person is going through while doing it. This is pretty straighforward, as I am sure you know.

My point is, the book effects the reader on a much more personal level - and now I am talking trictly about the violence - because of the psychological build up. But, I think you'd find that, there are actually less violence in the movies than there are in the books - it just feels faster and more in the movies because there isn't any psychological enhancers.

Hmm, I think I need to take a break and try to understand what the heck I am trying to say. Heh. Am I making any sense so far?

[GingerBreadMan]

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, Carlos was in hiding as a French Priest during the trilogy....but it has been a long time since I last read the books

[kcf]

I read the first Lustbader sequel and it's one of the worst books I've ever read in my life - avoid it like the plague.

[Gem Windcaster]

kcf;198699 said:

I read the first Lustbader sequel and it's one of the worst books I've ever read in my life - avoid it like the plague.

I concur wholeheartedly.

[amphibian]

GingerBreadMan;198628 said:

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, Carlos was in hiding as a French Priest during the trilogy....but it has been a long time since I last read the books

Spoiler

You're right. Bourne never meets Carlos until the third book.

The movies have to be shallower because of the time element. I think they've done a pretty good job with the two films so far. The movies did the right thing in detaching Bourne from the dated Carlos plot line and moving it into "McGyver action" territory.

Oh man that last sentence brought this up: Who wins in a fight between McGyver and movie Jason Bourne? It's already obvious that Bourne beats Bond.

[Abyss]

Wait, wait, which Bond?
Nevermind, forget i said anything, the answer is 'Wolverine'.

The Lustbader thing is funny. I have fond memories of his Ninja series, and when post Ludlum
- Abyss, thinks successful series should be allowed to die gracefully, like my cousin, and not screaming and generally making a mess, like his passengers.