[Skywalker]

Dolorous Menhir;196020 said:

How do you account for the damage Osserc has suffered in Udinaas' vision then? He's been burned, at least. He fought something.

One word - Convergence.

Power draws power. Maybe someone else slapped Osserc silly

[Wampyry]

There appears to be a very tight time-frame as to when Osseric and Rake
faught. Two thoughts:

1. Rake was trying to intercept Scaby on his way to or from the dumping
Ruin in the Azath, Osseric got to Rake first and delayed him long enough for
Scaby to escape.

2. Rake was never after Scaby, he wanted the Edur warriors who killed the
last of Ruin's army. Rake has a thing about betrayals. Osseric intercepts Rake,
Scaby is killed by Kilmandaros. Rake waits outside KE for Kilmandaors to help her clean house. Thus, preventing a fight between Rake and the ELder Gods.

[D'rek]

In the RG prologue Rake implies that he and Osserc didn't fight. Osserc says they fought when he speaks with Sukul and Menandore in MT. I see no reason to think those two situations were particularly close, time-wise. Could be a week apart or more.

[SonOfDarkness]

** Question **

Rake and Osserc seem to be potrayed as " good " guys with alot of power.

Im just wondering why does Osserc feel the need to Intercept rake? ( MT Prologue ).

That conversation with Mael and Gothos was it? Mael says " Osserc is already intercepting rake " .

Why? Does he feel a need to protect Scabi?
Why not assist Rake to kill the betrayer?

Then again it goes back to the hatred the andi and Liason have for each other correct? Have I answered my own question?

[Venerus]

If Osserc was indeed trying to stop Rake from killing Scabs (and that is the most parsimonious reading of the passages) it could be for the same reason Mael stopped Killy from killing Scabs. If it was a Liosan-Andii hate thing, why would Osserc want to protect an Edur from an Andii? Eh anyway, RG prologue:

Killy, Mael and Gothos:

Quote

"I will kill him now--" and she stepped closer.
"You must not," Mael said.
Kilmandaros faced him, huge hands opening then closing again into fists. "So you keep saying, you boiled crab."
(skip)
(Gothos) "Kilmandaros. Within the Ritual that now descends upon this land, upon the battlefields that these ugly forests, death itself is denied. Should you kill the Tiste Edur here, his soul will be unleashed from his flesh, but it will remain, only marginally reduced in power."

Given that this is pre-Dragnipur, Scabs killed by Rake's hands would be as bad as by Killy's, maybe Osserc figured it out and Rake didn't. I don't know, just a guess. Still doesn't answer the question of who beat up Osserc, and why in Udi's vision Osserc is convinced he slowed Rake down long enough to prevent him from doing... something.

I'd totally forgotten the ritual is why the Hold of Death was empty on Lether. Yay mini-rereads!

[MTS]

perhaps when Osserc states "Anomander. He got the better of me this time", he is simply stating that he was outwitted? because it clearly seems to be the case, as Rake tells us Osserc operated on the assumption that Rake would want to avenge his brother, when Rake saw no need to intervene, as Kilmandaros and Mael were obviously enough.

As to the damage suffered by Osserc...maybe Rake charged some of his Andii Soletaken Eleint buddies to rough up Osserc a litte, and make him look foolish? After all, as it has been implied that they have fought before, and if so, u would wonder why there was no finality to said fight. We are told by somebody (QoD?) "they would the game continue". In my eyes, at least, that tells me that maybe getting someone else to rough him up is his (Rake's) way of saying "i won this round." lol.

[Kalahinen]

Hmmm, a good point MTS, but I think Rake might have thought twice before sending his assistants to get killed by Osserc.

[MTS]

well yes, there is that. hit and run? haha but no, i cannot see Tiste Andii, or even Rake for that matter, stooping to such dastardly acts, even for this infamous vendetta of theirs. alas, my theory is inherently flawed.

hmm. well this is certainly a mystery worth solving. perhaps in future installments more light will be shed on this rather murky situation.

[D'rek]

I still don't see why we're tying the circumstances around Scabby's death with the scene with the 3 sisters. There's no reason to think they have to be so close together. When Scabby was dying they didn't fight. When Sheltatha was being dragged they did. Problem solved.

[Venerus]

Mappo said:

perhaps when Osserc states "Anomander. He got the better of me this time", he is simply stating that he was outwitted?

No, because Osserc says he slowed Rake down. Implies that there was some contact.

Quote

The weapon of anger often proves stronger than cold reason's armour." Then he shrugged. "Even so, I delayed him long enough--"

A said:

I still don't see why we're tying the circumstances around Scabby's death with the scene with the 3 sisters. There's no reason to think they have to be so close together. When Scabby was dying they didn't fight. When Sheltatha was being dragged they did. Problem solved.

There are many reasons to think they're related, with some evidence cited already in this thread. Give us a GOOD reason to believe that they AREN'T related -- the burden of proof is on you, as you're making the counter-reasonable claim. Your suggestion is not very parsimonious.

[Kalahinen]

Different possibilities:

The long and complex one:

-Gothos and Mael have a few laughs about Osric getting into Rake's way AGAIN...

Now, maybe their previous encounter happened only recently, say a couple of days ago, when Osric already knew about the Elders' plans to stomp Scabandari and Silchas both. Meanwhile Osric was going to keep Anomander preoccupied elsewhere, lest he interfere with the betrayal/execution/etc. things. Unfortunately, Osric is beaten badly, because he hasn't watched movies like Bloodsport, Lionheart, Kickboxer, and didn't know that when Anovandammer gets mad, he kicks some bottoms. Silchas is betrayed and azathed. Gothos and Mael laugh about Osric's defeat and the fact that he is going to face Rake again, while he is still in bandages. So, shortly after this the death of Scabandari takes place. Osric is circling in the skies, while Rake and Kilmandaros enter Emurlahn. Osric finds this out and meets his daughters, telling them that he had fought Anomander recently, and is therefore still in quite a shape.

The short and simple one:

- The Freemasons staged the whole episode.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Kalahinen;286188 said:

Different possibilities:

The long and complex one:

-Gothos and Mael have a few laughs about Osric getting into Rake's way AGAIN...

Now, maybe their previous encounter happened only recently, say a couple of days ago, when Osric already knew about the Elders' plans to stomp Scabandari and Silchas both. Meanwhile Osric was going to keep Anomander preoccupied elsewhere, lest he interfere with the betrayal/execution/etc. things. Unfortunately, Osric is beaten badly, because he hasn't watched movies like Bloodsport, Lionheart, Kickboxer, and didn't know that when Anovandammer gets mad, he kicks some bottoms. Silchas is betrayed and azathed. Gothos and Mael laugh about Osric's defeat and the fact that he is going to face Rake again, while he is still in bandages. So, shortly after this the death of Scabandari takes place. Osric is circling in the skies, while Rake and Kilmandaros enter Emurlahn. Osric finds this out and meets his daughters, telling them that he had fought Anomander recently, and is therefore still in quite a shape.

so your sayin that osric was not only ok with silchas and scabby getting azath'd and kilmandaros'd respectively but he delayed anomander from helping his brother? to what end? simple expedience? perhaps that is enough for this family. but it then seems that osric has conflicting loyalties, he is tiste yes, but he seemed to side with the elder gods, perhaps meaning he is one too? another tally in that column i guess, but we still cant be sure.

[Kalahinen]

Sinisdar Toste;286928 said:

so your sayin that osric was not only ok with silchas and scabby getting azath'd and kilmandaros'd respectively but he delayed anomander from helping his brother? to what end? simple expedience? perhaps that is enough for this family. but it then seems that osric has conflicting loyalties, he is tiste yes, but he seemed to side with the elder gods, perhaps meaning he is one too? another tally in that column i guess, but we still cant be sure.

The above theory of mine (the longer one) doesn't even dream to be taken seriously.

However, the shorter on does dream.

[Sinisdar Toste]

nevertheless, it would explain the inconcistencies of these scenes