[Onrack the breakable]

It seems after reading RG that alot of assumptions are in serious question.

Up to this point it seemed that for the most part, the good and bad guys broke down like this:

T'lan Imass- vicious mass murderers
Jaghut- innocent pacifists
Tiste (edur, liosan, andi) - elder good guys
Kchain Chmelle- evil lizards
Dragons- good, bad, and indifferent
Elder gods - good, bad, and in between
younger gods - capricious
Forkrul Assail- neutral or even somewhat psychotic evil
humans- pathetic toys that all other races and things prey and piss on

Now it seems like this:

T'lan Imass - somewhat innocent and naive but not stupid enough to just let the Jaghut murder them all with ice
-Jaghut- vicious liars and mass murderers
-Tiste- compulsive liars and traitorous backstabbers
-Kchain Chmelle- somewhat innocent and niave but maybe "morphed" into the T'lan Imass to survive the Jaghut ice.
-Dragons- possible tied to the Tiste and therefore mostly compulsive liars and untrustworthy
-Elder gods- mostly vicious and utterly vile
-younger gods- even more vicious and vile
-Forkrul Assail- victims of genocide and extermination by the Errant and/or Gothos and other Jaghuts
-humans- still pathetic toys that all other races and things prey and piss on.

I think its fairly obvious that most of the gods with the possible excetion of Krul are outright liars and the same for most races. Especially those races and individuals that portray themselves as "innocent", "virtuous", and "heroic".

I've also taken a strong disliking to the Errant, Gothos, and most Jaghut and Tiste. Like Udinass said, it would be better if they all just commited mutual suicide although Udinass is enough like the Errant and Clip that I don't trust anything he says either. But we never see the Errant actually doing anything but wallowing in luxury and excess while Udinass was a slave.

There is so much falsehood going on, that I wish they would all just kill each other. An occasional lie about something trivial is one thing but when almost every word Clip (and most other Tiste) speaks is a lie. Dam them all.

[caladanbrood]

Come now, you know better than to think any of Erikson's characters or races can be pigeon-holed so easily.

History, as they say, is written by the victors. People will always try to make themselves look good, even if, at heart, they're no less vile and repulsive then the enemies they defeated.

[Gem Windcaster]

I dislike categorizing people by their race. :hand: 'Nuff said.
I agree that they all seem very vicious though - especially the Errant is truly vile. You are welcome to join LHTEC, friend!

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm curious, what was it that made you change your opinion of the Jaghut? Gothos & the Huntress were the only ones in RG, and they didn't do anything to merit your new opinion of the race (that I can remember).

[Illuyankas]

Was it Hood?

[Imperial Historian]

I'm puzzled as to how RG makes those assumptions any more valid than before, your new assumptions seem fairly consistent with what we knew before, the Eg have always been brutal, the gods untrustworthy and generally unpleasant, the jaghut and imass morally ambiguous etc, nothing we saw in RG really changed that did it?

But where did you get:

-Kchain Chmelle- somewhat innocent and niave but maybe "morphed" into the T'lan Imass to survive the Jaghut ice.
and -Forkrul Assail- victims of genocide and extermination by the Errant and/or Gothos and other Jaghuts from?

The assail were exterminated by eleint and other beings because they had gone astray and were becoming a danger.. the assail tried to kill the errant, and helped some jaghut am I missing something?
And i've no idea where k'chain turned into imass came from

[ANOMAGNUS]

To be fair, the books have along, through the commentry of the mortal characters painted their gods as ba*****ds, indifferent to the needs of mortals, and fairly self obsessed.

In fact, even some gods have gotten sick of the whole game, case in point Mael, who jacked the whole thing in and dropped out to be a hobo.

As for the Tiste, well, i dont think its fair to paint the Tiste Andii with Rake, with the same brush as Clip, and the rest of the Letherii Andii, as i think isolation has twisted them. Same for the Drift Andii.

On the T'lan Imass, i like them, but lets not forget that they committed genocide. They broke the bones of children and left them to die under rocks. Thats been there from the very beginning. I had no illusions about their saint hood.

[mmdw45]

ANOMAGNUS;195072 said:

On the T'lan Imass, i like them, but lets not forget that they committed genocide. They broke the bones of children and left them to die under rocks. Thats been there from the very beginning. I had no illusions about their saint hood.

MoI paraphrase, when Itkovian is taking their memories:

"[Killing the Jaghut mother.] Had I a heart, it would have burst then. We had left all our gods and now knelt before an altar of brutality. Truth. And I, Cannig Tol, will not deny truth."

What sympathy I have for the Imass (barring Tool) comes entirely from MoI. Every other book makes them look like psychotic murderers. (Even RG makes the Imass still bound by the Ritual look... lost, until they find the Refugium.)

-Max

P.S. I also like "I dreamed I defied the Ritual. I strode to Onos T'oolan's side..."

P.P.S. At the end of MoI, I thought it was significant that he was now "Onos Toolan" instead of "Onos T'oolan" (the glottal stop implies "broken" or "flawed"). It was hard to be sure that it wasn't a typo, though. Fortunately RG has cleared that up nicely--his name is now "Onos Toolan." That makes me happy.

P.P.P.S. Somebody (Tool?) comments on how the undead K'ell Hunters are likely not as fast as they would have been in life. Perhaps we see some of that in RG, or perhaps Letherii are just not as good at fighting as the Grey Swords, or perhaps Redmasks' K'ell Hunter is unusually skilled, or some combination of all these. I also wonder if Tool is faster now than he was when he was a T'lan Imass. You think Moc would care for a rematch?

[Skywalker]

mmdw45;195206 said:

What sympathy I have for the Imass (barring Tool) comes entirely from MoI. Every other book makes them look like psychotic murderers. (Even RG makes the Imass still bound by the Ritual look... lost, until they find the Refugium.)

-Max

Actually there is this other quote as far back as GoTM that puts the T'lan Imass in (what was to me) a very poignant light:

Quote

The warrior stood staring at her. What kind of thoughts would occupy someone who'd lived through three hundred thousand years? Or did the Imass live? Before meeting Tool she had generally thought of them as undead, hence without a soul, the flesh alone animated by some external force. But now she wasn't so sure.

'Tell me, Tool, what dominates your thoughts?'
The Imass shrugged before replying. 'I think of futility, Adjunct.'
'Do all Imass think about futility?'
'No. Few think at all.'
'Why is that?'
The Imass leaned his head to one side and regarded her. 'Because Adjunct, it is futile.'
'Let's get going, Tool. We're wasting time.'
'Yes, Adjunct.'

She climbed into the saddle, wondering how the Imass had meant that...

[Agraba]

Quote

Tiste- compulsive liars and traitorous backstabbers

I wouldn't say Tiste Andii are cold heartless bastards, just Clip, Silchas, and Phaed. Nimander may have gone a little crazy, but I wouldn't put him with them. And Salandath Durkorlat (though most of her we take in from Book 5) seemed okay. Ever Tiste Andii we have seen in MoI seemed good-hearted. Anomander was always cold, distant and secretive, but as his second, Korlat, has discovered, it's because he didn't have the heart to reveal to his Tiste Andii that all the envoys of the Moon's Spawn inhabitants were bereft of a greater purpose for the Andii, and that they are, in fact, just playing the roles of the ultimate martyrs. Also, the only reason he ever opposed the Malazan empire was for the protection of liberated cities, and even near the end of MoI he decides that he sympathizes with the empire's actions, because he finds their culture the most liberating sort to those of diversity, and loves its ideals.

As for Tiste Edur: all they ever wanted was to return home. We know of only two factions that survived the great skirmish in the MT prologue, and those are that west of the 7C continent that got enslaved, and those on the north of the Lether continent. And then, their intentions always seemed quite honorable - even the Warlock King refused war with Lether - just until Rhulad became the CG's puppet. But even then, we learn in RG from his POV that everything nasty done in his name, that we learned of in TBH that made us hate him, were actually not his will at all, but that of Triban Gnol (and one in particular by the will of Hannan Mosag).

I can't say much about the Liosan. Thus far, the only ones we've met are L'oric (who we know has a too-definitive concept of morality, as demonstrated in protest of Scilarra disowning her baby), Osserc (I don't remember much of him from the tales), and the religious zealots in HoC worshipping an impostor god.

Also, Onrack: you seem to assign the word 'good' and 'evil' rather indiscriminately, in my opinion. Often in SE's history, there's just factions fighting for resources. Is it a matter of the first inequity that's merely being responded to, or 'who started it'? If that is your stance, I must refer you to a certain discussion Spite and Mappo had, about two kingdoms.

[Clip]

I think that you guys all seem to underestimate humans, and overestimate everyone else. Where is the scariest place that we've heard of so far in the books? Assail, where the human rulers consider wiping out the T'lan Imass a game.

Silchas went to Lether thinking that nothing could stop him and was driven off by a couple of cussers and Quick, even after he had fought, and won, against the 3 sisters. So thats 4 soletaken that Quick and moranth muitions have defeated.

Two humans learned how to master the Azath houses and used them to ascend and now they are among the most dangerous of the gods out there.

Humans have more than proved that they're powerful and are pretty much in charge of Wu.

[Brys Beddict]

Also, in regards to Silchas, I wouldn't exactly peg him as a Tiste. He drank Elient blood deeper than his brothers, and because of that, he has more Draconean blood than Tiste in his veins. It was either Udinaas or Seren Pedac that said that everything Silchas does is detached and calculating, which stems from his Draconean blood (mentioned in Book One of RG, I'll get the page ref later). So yeah, Silchas is more Elient than Tiste. Just throwing that out there.

[Dolorous Menhir]

mmdw45;195206 said:

What sympathy I have for the Imass (barring Tool) comes entirely from MoI. Every other book makes them look like psychotic murderers. (Even RG makes the Imass still bound by the Ritual look... lost, until they find the Refugium.)

Onrack? Legana Breed? It's been pretty clear all the way through that the Imass did what they did because they thought they had to, they took no pleasure from it, and have suffered hugely.

[Skywalker]

Dolorous Menhir;195267 said:

Onrack? Legana Breed? It's been pretty clear all the way through that the Imass did what they did because they thought they had to, they took no pleasure from it, and have suffered hugely.

I'd add Kilava to the list... and Pran Chole (One of Silverfox's creators)... but those are from MOI, so... er... Kinda moot.

[Clip]

Well, we wont see much more of the T'lan Imass, they mostly went off to Assail so they can be considered all wiped out.

[Obdigore]

Oh come on.

SE's whole theory is that (and this is obviously my opinion)

Races as a whole are evil, manipulative things.

There are stand-out (and stand-up) people in each race.

Each race, in its hayday, is at the height of power upon the world, however, there is always something that comes later to counter them and remove their power. (Although its kind of funny that as races get more 'powerfull' and then die out, there is always some 'immortals' that learn from the rest of their race's follies, and become even stronger than the race that replaced them...)

This is what is great about SE's books. There is an actual Cycle, and History, instead of just a random thing explaining the answer to another random event, and thats all you ever hear of it.

@Clip... ICE's books will be ALL ABOUT the Imass war, and the Crimson Guard (Which I wanted to abreviate as CG, but that would confuse matters immensly).

[Dolorous Menhir]

sky_walker;195269 said:

I'd add Kilava to the list... and Pran Chole (One of Silverfox's creators)... but those are from MOI, so... er... Kinda moot.

Pran Chole was in GotM too, so you're all right.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;195283 said:

Pran Chole was in GotM too, so you're all right.

The hell you say...the only Imass i remember is Tool. Where does Pran Chole turn up in GotM? Oooo wait, its in one of Kruppe's dreams when they create silverfox...Nevermind im NEWB.

[mmdw45]

Dolorous Menhir;195267 said:

Onrack? Legana Breed? It's been pretty clear all the way through that the Imass did what they did because they thought they had to, they took no pleasure from it, and have suffered hugely.

I don't like Onrack as much as Tool, but even if I did, the fact that the other T'lan Imass are determined to destroy him (for failing the Ritual) would just make them look even more psychotic. It's not just the thing about killing Jaghut, it's the lack of compassion for failure among their own kind.

Why should I like Legana Breed? He killed some Tiste Andii to save himself. He may have had some kind of compassion in mind, or he may have had a good reason why he needed to live, but so far all we know about him is that his Bonecaster ordered him to seal the wound and he threw somebody else in instead.

I do, of course, rather like Pran Chole, and Cannig Tol, and Kilava Onass. I'm not saying that the Imass actually *are* a bunch of psychotic murderers--MoI makes it clear that they're a lot more complicated than that--but then again, that's precisely what I like about MoI. For a few pages, at the Second Gathering and when Itkovian takes their memories, you get to peer beneath the mask and see the humanity underneath the horrific visage, and by that I don't mean the rotting flesh.

-Max

[Onos]

mmwd45: I agree with a lot of your points about MOI. It was my favorite book of the series and really like the Imass interactions. I dont see the Imass as being so terrible. They are no worse than modern humans IMO, and they tend to be somewhat cold in their destruction, and no longer doing anything for personal gain and dont subjugate anyone. They will take on any fight to kill powerful things. (instead of for money or power etc) Where as in general i am not to crazy about the Jaghut since they are reclusive and have turned inward.

Also i think Tool would be faster alive, just as the Kchain are faster alive. As for Mok they have different fighting styles. Tool 2 handed sword, Mok 2 One handed swords. Even with Tool dead i doubt Mok could win with each using only 1 equal sword.