[Abyss]

BridgeBurner;194314 said:

...@Abyss: Fid wasn't a damn good soldier. Remember him always losing his sword?

He's a damn good sapper though...

Good point and interesting distinction. When he moved into Tavore's army post DG, it was as a veteran and a sargeant, as opposed to as a sapper.

And generally he spends more time trying to keep his squad alive than blowing things up (tho he's done that too, and real goodly - see 'drum' and 'Silchas' butt').

In fact, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think Fid's squad (Ranal doesn't count) has had no losses since we were intro'd to them in HoC, and considering the 7C ambushes, Yghatan, Malaz City and Leth, that's fairly impressive.

So aside from losing his sword back in the day, (which he did use more than once in DG without losing it), i'd say he's moved from being 'just' the godfather of sappers, to being a soldier in that noble, warrior of warriors, grunt in the trenches, sort of way.

And i realize this is just fueling the 'Fid is the Soldier of HHL' fire, but i'm still not jumping on that particular bandwagon.

- Abyss, hoo-ah.

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss;194318 said:

In fact, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think Fid's squad (Ranal doesn't count) has had no losses since we were intro'd to them in HoC, and considering the 7C ambushes, Yghatan, Malaz City and Leth, that's fairly impressive.

I think you are right there.

Abyss;194318 said:

So aside from losing his sword back in the day, (which he did use more than once in DG without losing it), i'd say he's moved from being 'just' the godfather of sappers, to being a soldier in that noble, warrior of warriors, grunt in the trenches, sort of way.

You think so? I can't remember Fid using his sword much in DG. I only remember him using his crossbow. It's been a while since I read DG though...

Abyss;194318 said:

And i realize this is just fueling the 'Fid is the Soldier of HHL' fire, but i'm still not jumping on that particular bandwagon.

I don't think this is fuel to that idea. All people who have been enlisted in Houses have become aware of it at some point. I would be disappointed if Fid turned out to be the soldier of HHL, without us having seen a single thought about it from him, so far.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;194199 said:

Fid has some natural talent for hunches that translates to an affinity for the deck, and he's a damn good sapper and soldier. The potential for ascendency is there, esp due to his affiliation with the BBs who have already ascended (and hell, he WAS the link to the Tanno song), but he's not an Ascendent himself, not yet.

- Abyss, keepin' the Fid-man down.

I think the worship of Fiddler by his company and the other sappers would contribute to ascendancy, since I think that was Coltaine's reason for ascending - the trust and worship placed in him by those of the Chain, and the others who learned of his actions before his death (e.g. the Khundryl).

[caladanbrood]

What? Coltaine ascended?

Besides, worship contributes to godhood, surely, not ascendancy.

[Taciturn]

When Coltaine broke Gesler's nose Nil and Nether remarked that he had almost ascended, and Duiker muses on what that makes Coltaine (pg 429-430 in my copy of DG) but I don't know if it was explicitly stated that he was an ascendant. Since Coltaine's wrist broke too I took it to mean that he was nearly there as well, and I wonder if his death sequence means he was more or less than at that point.

[caladanbrood]

I thought that was referring to Gesler nearly ascending, not Coltaine.

[Taciturn]

"'-almost ascended. Yet the Fist. . .' Both warlocks now stared at Coltaine, and for the first time Duiker could clearly see the awe in their expressions." And a paragraph down, since the awe could easily have been inspired from the Fist's efforts up to that point, "Abyss below, all three of them . . . And. . . Coltaine?" I might just be terrible at interpreting prose, though. My bad if this counts as thread derailing >.>

[BridgeBurner]

Dolorous Menhir;194352 said:

I think the worship of Fiddler by his company and the other sappers would contribute to ascendancy, since I think that was Coltaine's reason for ascending - the trust and worship placed in him by those of the Chain, and the others who learned of his actions before his death (e.g. the Khundryl).

When looking at numbers of possible worshipers, didn't Coltaine have many more of them than Fid has?

[ch'arlz]

Gem Windcaster;194227 said:

Well, there's still a question wether the alive Bridgeburners are ascendants. Or on the way to become ascendants. They could be you know. And it is due to alot more than just having an affinity for survival - there's a reason they have survived after all. What that is can be argued though.

SE has several times described this series as a tragedy. The Bridgeburners and other allies may have survived to lead a final confrontation with the CG. The path of Aristotelian tragedy is from good fortune to bad, which doesn't bode well for the outcome On the other hand, the bad usually arises from a character flaw so it's hard to see what effect the purification might have on that trajectory.

[Gem Windcaster]

Well, it may be that SE's idea of tragedy is becoming a God. The Gods of Wu seems to be miserable bunch indeed.

[Danyah]

'Ascendants who find worshippers become gods, and that binding goes both ways. Ascendants without worshippers are, in a sense, unchained. Unaligned, in the language of the Deck of Dragons. Now, gods who once had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed. For the Elder Gods, that means the spilling of blood on hallowed or once-hallowed ground. For the more primitive spirits and the like, it could be as simple as the recollection or rediscovery of their name, or some other form of awakening. Mind you, none of that matters if the ascendant in question has been well and truly annihilated ...ascendants, whether gods or not, seem to possess some form of power. Maybe sorcery, maybe personality, maybe something else. And what that seems to mean is, they possess an unusual degree of efficacy...They’re trouble if you mess with them, is what I’m saying. A mortal man punches someone and maybe break the victim’s nose. An ascendant punches someone and they go through a wall. Now, I don’t mean that literally — although that’s sometimes the case. Not necessarily physical strength, but strength of will.When an ascendant acts, ripples run through...everything.' (BH, UK Trade, p.381-2)

The nose breaking thing might be a ref to Coltaine...

[Talamadas]

Danyah;194515 said:

'Ascendants who find worshippers become gods, and that binding goes both ways.

There must always be an exception to every rule and may I now present Andomander Rake.
Not only leader of the Tiste Andii in Black Coral but also worshiped as a god among the hidden Andii in Bluerose. They are now dead but that doesn't ruin my point.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Caladan Brood: as noted above, Duiker watched Coltaine break Gesler's nose and concluded that he must also be on the path to ascension if he could do that to a near ascendant. I didn't mean to imply that he completed that path and fully ascended, though these references to a Lord of Crows and the images of Coltaine that pop up are suggestive.

BridgeBurner;194439 said:

When looking at numbers of possible worshipers, didn't Coltaine have many more of them than Fid has?

Yes, Coltaine had a lot more. I still think it is a valid point - Fiddler is a living legend among Malazan soldiers.

[Danyah]

Talamadas;194601 said:

They are now dead but that doesn't ruin my point.

It does. Anomander never accepted Godhood so he was never bound by worshippers. Neither did Fid or Coltaine. An ascendant-God like the Errant wanes by the lack of worshippers, but gets extra power with each one they win. There's a reference in RG or MT (vague I know), that Silchas wouldn't have refused godhood, would it have been offered to him. That's what the Andii, and especially clip hate about him. Him ignoring his kin and worshippers.

[Mael]

Taciturn;194402 said:

"'-almost ascended. Yet the Fist. . .' Both warlocks now stared at Coltaine, and for the first time Duiker could clearly see the awe in their expressions." And a paragraph down, since the awe could easily have been inspired from the Fist's efforts up to that point, "Abyss below, all three of them . . . And. . . Coltaine?" I might just be terrible at interpreting prose, though. My bad if this counts as thread derailing >.>

I believe they were referring to all 3 of them. Gesler and Storm aswell as Coltain. Remember Coltain also broke his hand punching an almost ascended Gesler while breaking Gesler's nose in the process.

ASCENDANT PUNCHOUT FTW!!!

[Abyss]

Coltaine was doing the impossible (keeping the CoD alive/moving). Fid is just really really good at what he does (blow sh!t up in fun new interesting ways).

One is an exercise of will and faith, the other skill.

Plus, Coltaine was only 'on the path'. He never actually ascended, nor have Gesler and Stormy beyond the physical benefits of their Kurald Thyrrlan bath.

- Abyss, prefers to shower.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Fid has seen some crazy things - has done some crazy things. If his skill is staying alive, then he could be well on his way to ascending. However, I have a feeling that he would be the kind of man that would not enjoy ascendancy, and would prefer to just die.

He is a great soldier, for those referencing his lack of skill with the sword. He may not be the most effective man up close and personal, but he is a crack shot with the crossbow, has an excellent mind for keeping everybody alive, and the personality and history required to lead his squad well.

[Danyah]

' A Spiritwalker's sorcery was sung, no other rituals were required. Although devoted to peace, the power in a Tanno song was said to be immense...There is in a Tanno song the potential for Ascendancy...' (DG, UK MMPB, p.93)

[Coldnight]

Slightly offtopic:
Hasn't Nul or Nadir said somewhere in BH that Wickans do not ascend? They are reborn instead.

[GRIEF & VENEGEANCE]

Hi all

Great forum this. I have been reading for months and this is my first response so here goes (nervous energy abounds!!).

In response as to Coldnight's reply whether Coltaine was on the path to ascendacy or not. Towards the end of The Bonehunters the two Wickan warlock kids mention (the one to the other but I don't remember which) that "Wickans don't ascend we reiterate.".

I took this to mean that Wickans of power have crows come to their place and moment of death (perhaps to carry off their life essence), and that the more powerful the Wickan, the greater thre number of crows that arrive to carry off his/her life essence for rebirth.