[tiam]

On page 304- 306 it talks about the seguleh being a remnant of the first empire. Segul in the old language of the first empire means anvil and Samar Dev comment that the seguleh are likely an army sent to conquer somewhere and settled there. Now the title of Shield destriant in the language of the first empire T'orrud means shield hence the phrase Torrud Segul for Shield anvil. This means that the Torrud Cabal is a shiled Cabal. This means they are possibly protecting someone or shielding someone from the outside world.

With all these first empire reference names and the speech from the soldier of HHD in BH is it possible or even likely that the tyrant in question is Dessimbelackis?

[Obdigore]

Remember that it was a 'line' of Tyrants. Wasn't Dessim the first, and last, ruler of the First Empire?

[Dolorous Menhir]

The names of some Tyrant Kings were actually mentioned in GotM. I can't remember what they were exactly, but it was during Mammot's attempts to educate Crokus. It seems clear they were a line of kings that lived long after the First Human Empire.

Are they the Tyrants the Seguleh and Cabal wait for? I don't know, but when Circle Breaker was patrolling the Despot's Barbican in GotM he seemed to feel that the stones were waiting for the Tyrants to return. Foreshadowing?

[Abyss]

I know this was debated over in the TB forum, but since this is post-RG and we have new info, i raise it here: doesn't the Tyrants of Darujhistan myth post-date (come after) the end of the First Empire?

So Darujhistan could be a FE colony that eventually became a Tyrantocracy, and the Seguleh were a specialized army therein - explains the language link to the Seguleh name and the T'orrud Cabal.

- Abyss, considers this a torrud affair. heehee, see what i did there...

[BridgeBurner]

I'd rep you for the word Tyrantocracy, but it says I have to spread the love to others first, before I can do so.

Apparently there is no time limit there, since I rarely deal out points. Only 2-3 times, as far as I remember...

[Talamadas]

In GotM I found the names of the last 3 Tyrant kings as DM said earlier.
Letastte
Ektalm(upsurper of Letastte)
Sandenay (daughter of Ektalm)
The names don't ring a bell in my mind so I am guessing that they are not any powerful ascendant who is hiding somewhere. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Shryval]

I haven't this far in RG, but this talk of tyrants just reminded me that in Bonehunters, there is mention of 3 Tyrants that rule Shal'Morzinn (sp?). Iirc, the Perish seem quite afraid of them and advise the 14th not to go anywhere near the place.

Probably of no relevance, as SE is quite likely to use the term "Tyrants" as an accurate description as well as a title. Plus it might be one of his favourite words, like "Silts" or "Potsherds".

[tiam]

Abyss;192012 said:

I know this was debated over in the TB forum, but since this is post-RG and we have new info, i raise it here: doesn't the Tyrants of Darujhistan myth post-date (come after) the end of the First Empire?

So Darujhistan could be a FE colony that eventually became a Tyrantocracy, and the Seguleh were a specialized army therein - explains the language link to the Seguleh name and the T'orrud Cabal.

- Abyss, considers this a torrud affair. heehee, see what i did there...

it seems the Seguleh are definitely first empire as are the Cabal hence the titles. As for the First empire is there an actual date when the first empire fell.

In DG Kulp says that the fruit they were going to eat was 9000 years old.
In MT it says that the Letherii have been seperated from the FE for 7000 years although the Ceda questions this to be true. This gives the seguleh enough time to forget thei orignal ancestry. Or maybe they know it? Even more interesting.

As for Darujhistan being a FE colony i dontthink the numbers quite fit as its only 2000 years old and im fairly sure it fell before then.

[Mael]

Doesn't Anomander Rake list off some of the tyrants names aswell when he is speaking to the Alchemist in his study in GotM? If i remember correctly he lists off one or 2, one of which is very similar to Mammots name but longer and older sounding. He also mentions that he isn't used to being addressed as an equal while giving baruk a curious look. The Alchemist's response is that there are many paths to ascendancy "some more subtle then others."

To me all of this implys that some of the "Tyrants" of Darujistan are alive and well (except for those killed by Raest or Vorcan in GotM) and still running the place as the Torrud Cabal. It may be that the Torrud Cabal are a remenant of the First Empire who eventually founded (or conquered/Usurped) Darujustan.

[Dolorous Menhir]

tiam;192156 said:

it seems the Seguleh are definitely first empire as are the Cabal hence the titles. As for the First empire is there an actual date when the first empire fell.

In DG Kulp says that the fruit they were going to eat was 9000 years old.
In MT it says that the Letherii have been seperated from the FE for 7000 years although the Ceda questions this to be true. This gives the seguleh enough time to forget thei orignal ancestry. Or maybe they know it? Even more interesting.

As for Darujhistan being a FE colony i dontthink the numbers quite fit as its only 2000 years old and im fairly sure it fell before then.

I wouldn't trust any of those dates. Certainly not the "2000 years old" one, since that came from GotM.

[Talamadas]

Hetan was so nice as to post it in another thread. It was the Second not Rake who gave us an insight.

Quote

He appears to have been missing from the Seguleh island for a long time.
'Daru, Tell me, do the Tyrant's children still rule Darujhistan?'
Cutter is a little dazed by this apparition..the seguleh 2nd goes on..
"The fever zeal still grips my mortal kin, does it? Idiots!. The Tyrant's army still holds sway in the city then?" (the city being Darujhistan).
he then goes on to question if the seguleh are in the city, and is told that they are living on an island. He speculates that because of this they are being held in readiness 'lest the Tyrant returns'.
He talks of the council of mages, the T'orrud Cabal -, ..and refers to them as Barukanal, Derudanith, Travalegrah, Mammoltenan. 'Crouching low, lest the Tyrant returns, as one day he must! Returns, looking for his army! Hah, a council'.
So his mission appears to be three or even four fold.. to deliver a message to Cutter that the Tyrant may return to Darujhistan, to confirm that D'rek has made her position clear in the pantheon, that she is slaughtering her own priests because of Poliel's actions in siding with the crippled god and turning against D'rek - with whom she was previously allied iirc. Then there is his hunt for Skinner - he refers to him as cheater of death - and it appears to be a personal mission. Finally, this odd comment about Hood - 'Oh, I'll find him a wife one day, lay coin on it'.

So this should clear it up (just a little).
1. The Seguleh seem to be on the same side as the Cabal.
2. I believe the fall of the FE predated the Tyrants because else the Seguleh who are very likely from the FE wouldn't have stuck around to wait( new tasks etc)
3. This is a theory of mine. The Seguleh seem to avoid using magic or are not very fond of it. MAYBE the cabal are like a mage cadre from the FE. So we have the "normal" soldiers(Seguleh)´and we have their mages(Cabal)
But then again the Cabal didn't seem that old( = their knowledge didn't imprees me)

[tiam]

Yeh Erikson seems to be bringing in more info on the Cabal. I dont think he realised how much he commited himself (in relation to dates, power levels, intelligence) of the Cabal.

Also for some reason i see the seguleh mobilising against the Teblor. Thats whats building. Also what else can stop the Teblor march apart from Seguleh? Certainly not Broods army especially now since the CGRD are gone

[Onos]

I mostly agree with you about the Teblor vs Seguleh set up, but despite the Teblor being strong and hard to kill, i would bet on the seguleh. (unless the seguleh number less than 1000) Not counting Karsa the Teblor arent great rank and file fighters, and a unit of seguleh would shread them like a Kchain. Heck, i would bow before an 8 year old seguleh as it could kick my ass.

I can only see the seguled being defeated by Magic or possible Munitions.

[panic]

Seguleh vs Teblor would be sweet. Might even see the Cabal join in.

[Talamadas]

If the Teblor rub some blood oil on their chests the Cabal will be defeated without any problems.

[Abyss]

Wolverine would kick all their butts.

The fact that a word originates from a point in time does not mean the thing identified by that word is from the same point in time. It's like referring to your car as your chariot.

I still like the unlikely theory that the Cabal are the mages who yanks the CG out of his realm, but there's little to support that.

More likely seems that once, the Cabal and the Seguleh were a Tyrant's mages and army. When the Tyrant dissappered/died/whatever, the army was sent elsewhere and the mages stuck around under cover so to speak.

- Abyss, sweet chaaaaariot.....

[Coco with marshmallows]

Abyss;195892 said:

It's like referring to your car as your chariot.

you mean other people don't do that? just me??

i still think, considering how structured seguleh society is, there has to be something to the name however. Same for the T'orrud Cabal to be honest.

Coco, loving that he has two chariots.

Edited p.s. - the Norris would kick wolverine's ass. Sorry, but he would.

[panic]

Talamadas;195889 said:

If the Teblor rub some blood oil on their chests the Cabal will be defeated without any problems.

Is it confirmed that the oil works against elder warrens? BC I wouldn't be surprised if some in the cabal have access to them.

Also, Karsa seems to be a special case. The blood oil may very well not be as effective for other Teblor. And remember, at first the blood oil only blunted magical attacks against Karsa.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;195892 said:

I still like the unlikely theory that the Cabal are the mages who yanks the CG out of his realm, but there's little to support that.

The mages who caused the CG's Fall all died, they were not from the First Human Empire, they don't have any known link with Genebackis or Darujhistan at all (they were Korelri). I don't see it. The only reason I can see to even think of the two groups in the same post is because they are both teams of mages numbering more than two.

[flea]

Abyss;195892 said:

It's like referring to your car as your chariot.

It's not my car I refer to as my chariot.