[Morgoth]

hm... My thoughts on the whole hedge thing..

Paran explains in tBH that the major feature of an ascendant is its will. Hedge, as a ghost is an ascendant bridge burner, his will is singular and powerfull. his body is insubstansial, held together by his mind,his will. It is, in other words, merely an extension of that will. The munitions are also naught but an extension of his will. The substance of the objects, the explosions, the damage are all created by the power of his will, not by the object themselves -because they do not exist as independent objects.

the Question then is whether Hedge continues to be an ascendant upon regaining his mortal body thus becoming alive in the normal sense of the word. This depends on the nature of ascendancy and if once gained ascendancy can later be lost.

If Hedge is no longer is an ascendant, he cannot conjure munitions, so if that is the conclusion there's no point arguing further.

On the other hand, if he still is ascended, then the question is whether the ability to create an seemingly endless supply of munitions was a result of him being ascendant, him being a ghost, location, or a combination of the three. I'm inclined to go for the third option.

If Hedge can conjure explosives as a result of him being an ascendant, then it would be natural to assume this skill is shared by other ascendants. Ascendants are after all not the x-men. They do not each have one specific skill, but rather all share the common traits of their nature. Of course, the shape of ascendancy varies, but the basic nature remains the same. If Hedge can conjure munitions because he is an ascendant, then other ascendants should be able to do the same, which they can't as far as we know.

Is it then a result of Hedge being a ghost? To an extent i believe it is. As a ghost, Hedge's will is not bound by the limitations that his body impose upon him. As a ghost, the limits to what he can do should only be the extent of his will. However, we've met plenty of ghosts in the books, yet none have shown quite the level of power Hedge has.

So, if the conjuring ability is a result of hedge being a ghost, it must be in combination with another factor, in this case I think, him being an ascendant. As mentioned before, the single most important characteristic for an ascendant -as mentioned by paran- is the strenght of its will. by being an ascendant, Hedge as a ghost will be able to exert his will in a way normal ghosts cannot.

Yet, if the above paragraph is the solution, then surely an ascendant ghost is much more powerfull than a living ascendant. This might indeed be true. Hood is pretty much an ascendant ghost after all. But then, why do not all ascendants hungry for power aim for "ghosthood"? And scandabari was explained as becoming just slightly less powerfull as a ghost. So the explenation cannot just be that.

It can of course be that only those who become ascendants through death become more powerfull as ghosts, as that is in essense what they are. but this would also result in those ascended through death to be, if not more powerfull then at least more versatile, something we have not seen any proof of.

No, I belive that Hedge's ability is a result of him being a ghost an a ascendant in combination with the location he found himself in. In the land of the dead, your will and the will of others should be the only paramiter. Laws of nature and other such nonsens probably do not apply as they do elsehwere. Once Hedge left this place and became alive he probably lost the ability to ignore laws of nature with his mind. That is what I believe at any rate.

Is it written specifically that he conjured new munitions in the imass world, rather than him just carrying them from the Jaghut netherworld?

and finally, I doubt even SE would create a Deus ex machina of such an absurd magnitude.

[Aptorian]

The munitions and their effect was not just something Hedge could do in the spiritworld.

If you think back, the BB attack on the dogslayers in HoC was done using cussers aswell. So the BB ghosts can create the effect of munitions in the physical world aswell.

To me the only question remaining is whether Hedge is a plain mortal sapper again or ascendant sapper made flesh, and there fore once again vulnerable to damage like the rest of the squad?

[Danyah]

Ascendancy doen's work like "now you're a god, do as you please, it won't hurt". Thruth somehow ascended in the fire warren too, but was killed in the Y'Gathan firestorm anyway. Gesler ascended, but still Coltaine can break his nose. Trull seemed on the verge of ascendency too when he got simply backstabbed...
Ascendancy means getting better. It's like becoming an uber-human... And still, one can combine being an ascendant and being down to earth.
Do you ascend because you're the best of the best, or do you become better by ascending. Bit of both is my guess. Paran explains this in TB.

So my guess is that all the Bridgeburners have ascended with Parans blessing, the live ones too. That would explain QBs skill, but that would make him, Fiddler and Hedge immortal. Just a little harder to kill.

[Morgoth]

Aptorian;192833 said:

The munitions and their effect was not just something Hedge could do in the spiritworld.

If you think back, the BB attack on the dogslayers in HoC was done using cussers aswell. So the BB ghosts can create the effect of munitions in the physical world aswell.

That's a good point. Location is then not a factor.

Still, that leaves the combination of being a ghost and an ascendant. Hedge, like the imass was dead, but came to life in the warren, it is only natural to conclude that he now is as suspectible to damage as the imass are.

[Gem Windcaster]

Morgoth;192846 said:

it is only natural to conclude that he now is as suspectible to damage as the imass are.

:pTo me the opposite is 'natural' - sheesh is there something wrong with me?

[Morgoth]

Gem Windcaster;192895 said:

:pTo me the opposite is 'natural' - sheesh is there something wrong with me?

I do not see how his situation should be different from that of the Imass, and they certainly are..

[Gem Windcaster]

Morgoth;193136 said:

I do not see how his situation should be different from that of the Imass, and they certainly are..

But the Imass are not ascendants, are they?

I don't deny the fact that Hedge can die - I never did - everyone can die in Wu, I was simply refuting the idea that Hedge is now the same as he was before he ascended. We don't know what the difference is for Hedge inside the refugium and outside it - or for anyone for that matter.

That Hedge can die is a different issue alltogether from the question weather he can produce endless amounts of cussers.

A thought: it could be that Hedge can only produce 'one sack at a time', or whatever.

Conclusively, we don't know enough about the concept of ascendancy to really be able to decide anything at this point. Also, as someone said before, the situation of the Ascended Bridgeburners is probably unique, so beside the fact that we don't know what the usual rules are, we don't know how Hedge deviates from the usual rules.

And I can't see how Hedge having an endless supply of cussers necessarily makes him a deus ex machina? Sure, it would make him powerful, but not necessarily much more than if he had a personal supply line from the Moranth? And I thought we had settled that all power in Wu is relative.

/sorry for the rant, but this is getting ridiculous

[Agraba]

If Hedge does have the power of infinite supply, what decides that it's specifically moranth munitions he can produce? What if he's poured more tea for himself in his lifetime than thrown Moranth munitions; can he then produce tea from thin air.

Also, if ascendancy just exaggerates the skill you have in mortal life, that wouldn't justify Hedge producing munitions. It would only justify greatly boosting his aim/throw ability. He never magically formed or produced things in life.

If moranth munitions can do the damage we've seen it do already, then a man being able to magically produce them would cause a major deus ex machina. It would mean the BH will never run out.

Also, to justify myself with this theory: http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=7729
I might speculate that the munition conjurings were Hood's doing.

[Gem Windcaster]

Agraba;193204 said:

If moranth munitions can do the damage we've seen it do already, then a man being able to magically produce them would cause a major deus ex machina.

Why?

Quote

It would mean the BH will never run out.

So? Even if they had mountains of munitions, they still can only throw a certain amount at any one time.
And there are other limits of the use of cussers - unless you intend to commit suicide - with every cusser there are an incredible amount of danger involved to the people around. And unless Fid and Hedge goes on a major recruiting spree, the sappers are a dying breed.

Please explain this to me - I can't see the deus ex machina thing. Not at all.

[Abyss]

Gem Windcaster;193269 said:

... unless Fid and Hedge goes on a major recruiting spree, the sappers are a dying breed. ...

Well apparently Crump is pretty keen to be one...

But my view is that Hedge walked out of the Refugim with a set of gear including his 'usual' ie:pre-death pack of munitions and his trusty lobber and c'est fini. He's not a walking unlimited munition machine any more, and even in his pre-Refugim state, you onlyhave to look at what happened when he tossed the cusser at Emroth to see that he wasn't exactly bomb-proof even then. He was vulnerable when his own cusser went kablooie.


But there's a more interesting element i'm wondering about - post Hedge and the Bentract, including the ones apparently sent by the CG, does this mean that ANY undead (ghost, disembodied spirit, post-ritual Imass, etc)finds themselves in the Refugim becomes mortal again?

Because if so, Rud may be VERY busy fighting off would-be ressurections.

SO maybe Hedge has a good reason to keep a low profile, or maybe the Adjunct's agenda is going to change once she meets her new back-from-the-dead sapper.

- Abyss, hey, it's like Walmart for dead people!

[Agraba]

Gem Windcaster;193269 said:

Why? So? Even if they had mountains of munitions, they still can only throw a certain amount at any one time.
And there are other limits of the use of cussers - unless you intend to commit suicide - with every cusser there are an incredible amount of danger involved to the people around. And unless Fid and Hedge goes on a major recruiting spree, the sappers are a dying breed.

Please explain this to me - I can't see the deus ex machina thing. Not at all.

That's because you're used to playing video games with infinite ammo. In a military pursuit, especially one in a rennaissance setting like this, artillery supply is a major concern. There's the economic upkeep which takes away from training, necessary supply, etc... If the Bonehunters continue with an infinite supply, no force in the world (except maybe the Na'ruk high-tech, or an army of KCM with matrons, if they're out there) can stop the Bonehunters. You saw that such a force makes itself feared to the likes of Silchas Ruin and Raest.

Also, there's the hassle of carrying it. If you have a hundred cussers, but two on you at once, and enemies start swarming you, you only have those two to use, and you can't reach the wagon for more. Hedge, however, would be untouchable if he could pull munitions out of thin air (note that he's far more skilled than any other sapper, so he'd likely not kill himself).

The only way I can see it justified is if the BH will have to face the KNR or KCM in a war. But that won't be the case, since they would obviously be crushed in a snap, with little effort, with only Sinn and QB left standing (but hiding in some twist of realms that they hope to the gods they're not found in).

[Gem Windcaster]

Well guys, I guess we'll see who's right... I am not set on any particular opinion in this matter, I just like demolishing arguments. :heyhey:

Abyss;193275 said:

Well apparently Crump is pretty keen to be one...

But my view is that Hedge walked out of the Refugim with a set of gear including his 'usual' ie:pre-death pack of munitions and his trusty lobber and c'est fini. He's not a walking unlimited munition machine any more, and even in his pre-Refugim state, you onlyhave to look at what happened when he tossed the cusser at Emroth to see that he wasn't exactly bomb-proof even then. He was vulnerable when his own cusser went kablooie.


But there's a more interesting element i'm wondering about - post Hedge and the Bentract, including the ones apparently sent by the CG, does this mean that ANY undead (ghost, disembodied spirit, post-ritual Imass, etc)finds themselves in the Refugim becomes mortal again?

Because if so, Rud may be VERY busy fighting off would-be ressurections.

SO maybe Hedge has a good reason to keep a low profile, or maybe the Adjunct's agenda is going to change once she meets her new back-from-the-dead sapper.

- Abyss, hey, it's like Walmart for dead people!

I agree, kitty, there are alot of interesting subjects to wonder at. So far we don't know sh*t, if you don't mind my wording. It will be pretty interesting though.

@Agraba: I still don't see how Hedge would endanger everone around him by over-using cussers. But hey, maybe that's part of his personality. As far as his skill with cussers, maybe his death taught him something, but he still is quite dangerous - remember how he 'died' in the first place. And I don't see how it makes him untouchable, it is already established that using cussers is extremely deadly.

I agree with the FA/KNR/KCCM thing though. As I said in my previous post, power on Wu is relative, and a supposedly deus ex machina in one fight, is an even battle in another.

[Agraba]

Well I didn't really mention FA... in order to win they would have to ambush the BH, and have most of their forces in close range quickly, which is do-able. However, on a battle field, where they meet with some distance, I'm not so sure how they'd fare, especially since their only strength is physical prowess.

However, given the nature of malazan fights, the former is more likely. It's ironic how the malazans' main style of fighting would be their demise against the FA.

But we have no indication of a sudden rising of FA forces, only a couple that managed not to be wiped out, like Jaghut. (And each race did have a loss or two recently.)

[jwolfbro]

gonna have to go with no longer unlimited supply now that he is real again. The special circumstances of "manifestation of the will", ascendant Bridgeburner sapper, and below Hood's realm of Death gave Hedge the opportunity to play around. He could heal himself with a thought, just imagine the arm whole again and it was, and he could have a cusser in hand whenever he wanted. He "made" his sack before stepping into the Refugium and kept the rules because he still thought he was a ghost and not subject to the laws of nature. thus his manifestation of the will gave him his own protection. because he thought the rules didn't apply to him, they didn't.

Thus when Quick asked him if he bled he was unsure of the importance. Of course he didn't, Ghosts can't bleed.

Then Quick hit him and he bled. He realized that the rules did in fact apply and he was no longer "special". His manifestation of the will gave him his humanity back and he is human again. Still an ascended Bridgeburner sapper, but so is Fiddler and Quick Ben for that matter. Same for Paran and the rest of the squad listening to Duiker post Coral.

[Abyss]

Agraba;193282 said:

...Hedge, however, would be untouchable if he could pull munitions out of thin air (note that he's far more skilled than any other sapper, so he'd likely not kill himself).
...

Except for that he has once already - end of MoI. Twice if you count the damage he did to himself pre Refugim.

- Abyss, boom! Ouch. Boom! Ouch. Wheeeeee...