[Sir Bob]

ok my memory is slightly fuzzy and i dont have reapers gale on me but...
at some point was toc musing about redmasks mask been made from KCCM skin? if this is so does it say anything about the mask redmask/imposter was wearing at the end was it just a red mask? so he would have been killed because the kccm no longer thought him one of their own.

[tiam]

The Mask was the throat skin of a KCCM matron.

[Sir Bob]

cool, well remembered!! so was it the same mask at the end? its just the way i read it, it did not feel it was the same redmask. sorry i cant really describe why i think he is still alive, like i say its just a feeling.

[Dragnipurake]

it was the same mask. kilava points out to hetan that the mask is made of a matron's skin, when hetan goes to look at the guy killed by the KCCM.

[Abyss]

I figured the points of the Redmask storyline were these:

- War is hell;
- There were honourable people amongst the Edur and Letherii;
- Letherii manipulations of various tribes led to eventual reprisal;
- Toc's writings had to become available somehow;
- the KC are back and interacting with humans in a totally new way;
- ended the Grey Swords storyline but opened a new question about what the Wolf Gods are up to;
- maybe ended Toc's storyline, maybe not, but either way made it clear he was a hero;
- magic can be drained from the ground without creating otataral.


So it was rather separate from the other storylines, but it had a place in the big picture, i think.

- Abyss, now avoids playing in the mud.

[Mael]

Onrack the breakable;192743 said:

I agree its a simple explanation. If you want to get more complex you could consider the whole book is about the "Nameless Ones" who steal peoples names and some memories or at least background info and then go about attempting global domination and control and all the wars and such are simply to keep the heros too busy to notice they are being used as nothing more than cattle, and then devoured or crushed and tossed in the dumpster when their use is at an end.

There were quite a few characters like Redmask that seem to just have a name and some obscure, murky, and dramatic history. Consider Iron Bars and what Shurq Ellale (divine undead) recounts.

"Shurq consoled her agitated conscience by reminding herself that Iron Bars had spoken of Jacuruku with some familiarity- at least in so far as knowing its name. And as for Corlos's wide-eyed prayers to a few dozen divinities, well, he was prone to melodrama. A dozen knights wouldn't have been enough to halt Iron Bars and his Crimson Guard, determined as they were to do whatever it was they had to do, which in this instance, was cross Jacuruku from one coast to the other, then find themselves another ship."

I think this clearly shows that Shurq was smart enough to call the "Nameless Ones" (or at least Iron Bars) on the bluff and teach them a lesson for their brazen stupidity. Is Shurq some kind of elder goddess? It seems so to me but maybe not.

Huh? This is confusing. Are you saying Iron Bars and the Crimson Guard are the Nameless ones? Shurq is deffinatly not an elder goddess and the quote was just her reflecting on her feeling guilty about abandoning them to a fight on the shores of Jakuruku.

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Also Fear Singer in the group questing after Scabbys soul in the finnest. Fear makes like he is doing it all for Seren Pedac, like she is his biatch or something. When Seren considers leaving, Fear makes like she is betraying him, when as far as I can see Fear never did anything for anyone- while in his mind he is the noble hero of the story or some such nonsense. Its like a bunch of children hounding simple minded and weak willed parents into doing whatever they want. Or like a bunch of scummy priests trying to enslave their own god. Its good to know that at least The Worm of Autumn didn't put up with that crap and slayed all her own priests and priestesses. So far the only god to take its followers to task for even some of their sins and misdeeds.

Fear was always following the group as a means to obtain and free Scabandari bloodeye because he figured Scabby would have the power to retake control of his usurped brother and people. He enlisted Saren's help to do this, it wasn't the other way around. This was always his reason for travelling with them. His actions towards Saren later on were due her percieved betrothal to Trull which made Fear act in true closed minded edur fashion (much like he did when Ruin killed the Edur at the beginning of the book, among other times). Her threat to leave the group made him upset because it felt like a betrayle and because he was losing the remaining attachment he had to Trull.

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Anyway, I think alot of people are reading these books and only utilizing the intellect of a 4 year old. Its apalling.

You should be careful about insulting peoples intellect when you toss out crackpot theories in an almost illegible fashion.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;195987 said:

You should be careful about insulting peoples intellect when you toss out crackpot theories in an almost illegible fashion.

Ouch. I can't criticise Onrack the breakable that much, because I am also condescending and often wrong. But I will agree that most of the stuff he says is BS that he's just made up for no apparent reason (e.g. "the Bonehunters are becoming a D'ivers").

[Demon X]

caladanbrood;191141 said:

Plus, Onrack's wife is Tool's sister;)

Also, she's the mother of Humanity if the Whirlwind Goddess's thoughts in CG are to be beleived. She makes referenced to Kilava's children runningaround and spreading upon the earth. Which makes Onrack the Father of Humanity....literally!

I'm suprised there hasnt been a thread about that subject yet....or has there?

[Imperial Historian]

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I'm suprised there hasnt been a thread about that subject yet....or has there?

I'm sure there was one, but a very long time ago...

I think it's pretty clear from the references of p634, that Redmask was a letherii child, raised as an awl, and that this fact was not well known outside of the renfayer tribe.

To hide his origins as a letherii redmask presumably adopted the mask so he could lead the other awl, which he seems to have got by killing 'a dragon' according to the legends the letherii know of (p58) whilst only a child, which was obviously a k'chain che'malle, using his mastery of the ancient awl weapons, which he seems to have learnt to prove is 'awl-ness'.

I think the most interesting thing we have about Redmask is this...
'the two K'chain che;malle seemed content... content to follow Redmask, to protect him, to kill Letheriii. and he had no idea why.' (p59)

Which is pretty interesting, as it suggests even Redmask himself probably couldn't explain the mystery of the k'chain.

[Falco]

He's the Mortal Sword of the KCCM and doesn't know it? Weird.

[Mael]

Demon X;196069 said:

Also, she's the mother of Humanity if the Whirlwind Goddess's thoughts in CG are to be beleived. She makes referenced to Kilava's children runningaround and spreading upon the earth. Which makes Onrack the Father of Humanity....literally!

I'm suprised there hasnt been a thread about that subject yet....or has there?

Ya this has been touched on a few times in the forums and was confirmed in RG pretty much.

Onrack and Kilava created humanity. I would assume that the leader of the Bentract (thier son) whose name i can't recall is most likely the pregenator of the human race.

[Tiste Simeon]

Abyss said:

I figured the points of the Redmask storyline were these:

- War is hell;
- There were honourable people amongst the Edur and Letherii;
- Letherii manipulations of various tribes led to eventual reprisal;
- Toc's writings had to become available somehow;
- the KC are back and interacting with humans in a totally new way;
- ended the Grey Swords storyline but opened a new question about what the Wolf Gods are up to;
- maybe ended Toc's storyline, maybe not, but either way made it clear he was a hero;
- magic can be drained from the ground without creating otataral.

-Barghast are now at war with the K'Chain Che'Malle!

[Falco]

To be fair they're part of an army that's about to lock swords with the KCCM (lock swords, geddit?). Inc. Grey Shields, Bonehunters et al.

[Tiste Simeon]

Conflagration! w00t!

[Abyss]

That the KC are an enemy to the east and the Barghast are joining the party against them is pure speculation and you all know it.

- Abyss, figures it's actually the Decepticons PRETENDING to be K'chain Che'malle.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Falco;196089 said:

He's the Mortal Sword of the KCCM and doesn't know it? Weird.

First Sword. And Toc told him, so he doesn't have any excuse not to know.

[Falco]

Abyss, shhhh!

DM, thanks for the clear-up.

- Falco, who's Optimus Prime?

[Deragoth]

As one of the above posters mentioned, I think this story is a prologue to a later book. Perhaps filling out the rest of the Letherii continent and letting us know more about the "dragons in the east".

[Tiste Simeon]

Surely, that's the Great Bear of the East?

Tiste Simeon, sometimes confuses real life and the Malazan books...

[QuickTidal]

Abyss;196217 said:

- Abyss, figures it's actually the Decepticons PRETENDING to be K'chain Che'malle.

HAHAHA, and the K'Chain Che'malle leader is actually Grimlock!!