[Onrack the breakable]

The last half of RG made me think the Bonehunters were in some sort process of acending as a D'ivers. Oddly, we haven't seen many d'ivers in the last few books and no mention of them at all in this book while what we see starts looking like from the viewpoint of a d'ivers of some sort.

This all seems tied up in the journey to Starvald Demelain where resides Rud. Either Hedge or Quick Ben mentioned something about once there anything was possible (if draconic blood is spilled). Also, troubling is the Icarium machine seems to be a harvester of souls that accumulates them into a fat Ranag for Rud and his Imass "friends".

Also that bit about Jarack birds that first of all push out other birds eggs and put their own in. When their chick hatches it eats all its "brothers and sisters". Then it cries, and parent birds from everywhere come to feed it, but its true parents ambush all the kindhearted and stupid birds, kill them and feed them to their baby. Its odd that Onrack is so close in spelling to the Jarack birds. Who is Edgewalker? Onrack who is really a Jarack or is it the other way around? Is Hood Edgwalker? Its interesting that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are two in number, sort of like parent Jarack birds.

The last 1/4 of Reapers Gale it seemed like almost everyone was doing the d'ivers thing. And after several of the big baddies of the Tiste Edur were killed, suddenly Hellion seemed to take over Balm or maybe just swap places. Corabb musing about a glorious death and his big skull , bigger than all the rest, that not even a king could afford. Then Hellion says, listen tell Hearty Death he can have his skull back... Also near the very end Tehol, Bugg, and that empress girl (forgot her name) they start talking like Fiddler, Hedge, and others. Also when Withal goes back to break the CGs sword, the CG starts crying. Suggesting the thing on Withal's island is a Jarack bird not a god, even a crippled god. But does that give any clue as to who or what is the false god? It seems like they are ALL false in succession, draconian, then usurped by the andi, liosan, then edur (or trice versa), Jaghut, Imass, etc.

Anyway, its a wonder if Rud is the real Jarack, since at the end Rud ask if they are going to feast on that poor bleating ranag calf , and Udinas replies "only if you have no conscience". Then several adult ranag appear to lead it away from Rud's gaze. Then Icariums vicious soul devouring machine doesn't work quite right because its missing one piece. Probably a conscience.

Anyway, maybe some of this is just showing the mechanisms of "recycling" souls if such things even exist so who is doing what may not be an issue exept to make a dramatic and sordid tale. Its kind of funny though, like when Feather Witch seems to take on the brown teeth and rotted feet of Sheltatha Lore.

[kkyyyssss]

; you re weird... what i want to know is, what happened to that toblakai with the animal spirit in it that we met in deadhouse gates and seemed to have been adopted by togg but never heard of again...

[Onrack the breakable]

That Toblakai that had its spirit swapped with an enkeral (dragon spawn) that then battled Kalam but something kept healing Kalam even though he shoulda died half a dozen times? Now that you mention it, that seems sort of the soul swapping sort of d'ivers thing to do. And interesting that is the Toblaki freed by the Wolves Togg and Fanderay, while the poor enkeral body dies. Once again sort of paralleling what happens with Scabandari (getting a fist in the head from Kilmandaros).

Anyway, maybe that toblaki becomes Karsa Orlong once the nameless ones "reprogram" him/it.

Curious.

Another interesting bit supporting the "d'ivers" point is when Hedge and Quick Ben are chatting and Hedge calls QB, "miserable snake", and QB replies with, "hairless rodent". Just a few pages away we see in Udinass mind Seren as a sneaking snake, and Kettle playing with a hairless rodent. Significant? I think so. Also remember all the creatures that follow the Bonehunters everywhere. Alot more than normal. And when Corabb wonders how far an insect can see, a mosquito immediately bits him on the eye.

[TOGGS]

That conversation that took place really had me going around the bend. I'm convinced its some oblique reference to Whiskeyjack.
We know the Moranth call him Bird that steals, while that tribe Karsa met in The Bonehunters called him King Iskar Jarack, which I originally took to be their way of saying "Whiskeyjack"
Is this SE giving us a hint about what is going on with him & maybe the bridgeburners? Is Whiskeyjack alive and well (or soon to be) having stolen some kids body, kinda like Coltaine

On an added note, for all of one line I thought he had come back. Where seren meets an old mad with "stonemasons wrists" it screamed WJ, bloody Bugg. Ah well

TOGGS - LORD OF WOLVES AND SWIMWEAR

[tiam]

Kilava;190080 said:

; you re weird... what i want to know is, what happened to that toblakai with the animal spirit in it that we met in deadhouse gates and seemed to have been adopted by togg but never heard of again...

It wa in HOC wasnt it? Not being pedantic just cant remember

[Dolorous Menhir]

It's strange Onrack, but I seem to disagree with almost every theory you post. This "Bonehunters as D'ivers" things seems totally out of the blue, since D'ivers are individuals who gain the ability to veer into collections of animals, not large groups that do something or other. Some specific points:

Quote

Another interesting bit supporting the "d'ivers" point is when Hedge and Quick Ben are chatting and Hedge calls QB, "miserable snake", and QB replies with, "hairless rodent". Just a few pages away we see in Udinass mind Seren as a sneaking snake, and Kettle playing with a hairless rodent. Significant? I think so. Also remember all the creatures that follow the Bonehunters everywhere. Alot more than normal. And when Corabb wonders how far an insect can see, a mosquito immediately bits him on the eye.

First off: QB and Hedge are not Bonehunters, so that's not relevant. Neither are Udinaas, Seren or Kettle. And do creatures really follow the Bonehunters? I can't remember ever thinking that was the case. Sure, we hear a lot more about animals because Bottle is using them, but that doesn't mean they are closely linked with the army. Or that it's got anything to do with D'ivers.

The reason there are so few D'ivers is because the only known event that produced D'ivers was the ritual that destroyed the First Human Empire. Very few of those D'ivers are still around, and they don't maintain a high profile. The only other named D'ivers I can think of is Mogora, and she may well fall in the FE-remnant category too, since we have no idea how old she is (though her being Dal Honese argues against that). I'm ignoring all the D'ivers seen on the Path of Hands in DG, since we know nothing about them.

I think the discussion of the Jarack bird was a roundabout way of confirming that "Iskar Jarack" is Whiskeyjack. The Moranth called him Bird-that-steals, as noted, and "whiskeyjack" is a real name for a bird (see link). Verifying that "jarack" is also a bird in the Malazan world wraps it up for me. Iskar Jarack is definitely Whiskeyjack - but this does not mean that he is alive. The Iron Prophet, as the Anibar called him, was from the past. It appears Whiskeyjack visited them at the time of the original Malazan invasion of Seven Cities, so the fact that he figures in Anibar legend has nothing to do with whether he's still alive now.

Onrack the breakable;190088 said:

Anyway, maybe that toblaki becomes Karsa Orlong once the nameless ones "reprogram" him/it.

That Toblakai was a pure-blood from the old times. Plus, Karsa is known to already be active while that TTT was demon-possessed. It's the new Champion of the Beast Hold, and has nothing to do with Karsa. As the only full-blood TTT in the series (Bellurdan excepted, since he's of unknown heritage and dead), I hope Karsa does meet him. Though it would probably end with Karsa killing it just to prove he could.

tiam;190130 said:

It wa in HOC wasnt it? Not being pedantic just cant remember

That's right, Kalam was on his way to Raraku to end the Whirlwind when he had that encounter.

[Onrack the breakable]

Wait, you say divers go from one to many but remember Gruntle and his legion of Trake which "veers" into a huge tiger. Sort of the reverse of D'ivers. One from many instead of many from one. But thats like saying water is not water just because it is flowing one direction instead of the other.

So technically speaking (if it is even possible to speak technically about something that doesn't even exist) its a reverse D'vers thing, a converging d'ivers like when the spider woman Mogora reforms from 10,000 spiders. She is still a d'ivers and still Mogora.

Thats all I'm saying. Its odd tho that Gruntles legion of trake were able to converge into the giant tiger after only a few battles while the Bonehunters have not yet reached that point (and maybe never will). Maybe because the Bonehunters "have no head" yet and are part of a bigger entity that was dispersed while trakes legion was made right then and there from newbies.

Is Tavore really the "head" of the Bonehunters? She maintains that she is still adjunct. Also Tavore seems pretty pathetic as a commander so far, her best quality being that she lets her captains and sergeants have some slack, but many of her major decisions seem to be such as to do everything possible to DESTROY the bonehunters.

[Dark Mac]

Onrack the breakable;191353 said:

Wait, you say divers go from one to many but remember Gruntle and his legion of Trake which "veers" into a huge tiger. Sort of the reverse of D'ivers. One from many instead of many from one. But thats like saying water is not water just because it is flowing one direction instead of the other.

No, it's like saying a waterfall is not a waterfall because the water flows up instead of down. D'ivers and Trake's legion work in very different ways.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack the breakable;191353 said:

Wait, you say divers go from one to many but remember Gruntle and his legion of Trake which "veers" into a huge tiger. Sort of the reverse of D'ivers. One from many instead of many from one. But thats like saying water is not water just because it is flowing one direction instead of the other.

So technically speaking (if it is even possible to speak technically about something that doesn't even exist) its a reverse D'vers thing, a converging d'ivers like when the spider woman Mogora reforms from 10,000 spiders. She is still a d'ivers and still Mogora.

Thats all I'm saying. Its odd tho that Gruntles legion of trake were able to converge into the giant tiger after only a few battles while the Bonehunters have not yet reached that point (and maybe never will). Maybe because the Bonehunters "have no head" yet and are part of a bigger entity that was dispersed while trakes legion was made right then and there from newbies.

Is Tavore really the "head" of the Bonehunters? She maintains that she is still adjunct. Also Tavore seems pretty pathetic as a commander so far, her best quality being that she lets her captains and sergeants have some slack, but many of her major decisions seem to be such as to do everything possible to DESTROY the bonehunters.

The example of Trake's legion is not relevant here. They were an instrument of a god, and they took his form. This does not apply to the Bonehunters.

This idea is the dictionary definition of wild unsupported speculation. There's not the slightest bit of evidence that the Bonehunters can transform into one big form. I think we would have noticed.

D'ivers are not created from many people merging into one. It's that simple.

[Danyah]

Murgh, I hope you guys are not seriously discussing this, because Onrack probably wrote his first statement under influence.

[BridgeBurner]

Onrack the breakable;191353 said:

Is Tavore really the "head" of the Bonehunters? She maintains that she is still adjunct. Also Tavore seems pretty pathetic as a commander so far, her best quality being that she lets her captains and sergeants have some slack,

which, to me, shows she knows her commanders.

Onrack the breakable;191353 said:

but many of her major decisions seem to be such as to do everything possible to DESTROY the bonehunters.

I disagree. When you look at the knowledge she based her decisions on, both Y'ghatan and the Marines' landing are plausible tactics for the situation at hand, as far as it's known.

As of the Bonehunters becoming a D'ivers, how many dialogues have you seen between the Bonehunters' soldiers/marines in RG? Because every single one of them proves your speculation to be just that.

What's really going on is that separate units are learning to function best, sometimes in combination with other units (e.g. Fiddler's and Gesler's squad). In other words, the Bonehunters are becoming seasoned.

[Onrack the breakable]

Danyah;191427 said:

Murgh, I hope you guys are not seriously discussing this, because Onrack probably wrote his first statement under influence.

Yeah, I can't believe that. But what a kick! -even if it tasted like bamboo shoots some dog pissed on.

[Aptorian]

Probably the wrong place to make take this up, but.

I doubt there exist any other D'ivers then the ones that were created during the first human empire. D'ivers don't seem like a natural appearing event... on the other hand I'm not quite sure how you become a soletaken either, except eating claypigons

[Abyss]

I think you're stretching military/buddy'ness with this theory. Because obviously, in a good military org, one mind-different bodies is an ideal to strive form, and the point was made abundantly clear that of the Bonehunters, the marines, at least, are reaching some sort of near-perfect military state. hnce, finishing each others' statements, switching roles without consultation or orders, and covering each others' butts is all part of it.

Oh, and the Iskar Jarak / Jarak bird thing is just a variation of Whiskeyjack's name... in GotM, a Moranth called him Bird-that-steals. Whish is, as an aside, also a translation from a native canadian name for a RL bird with similar tendencies.

But d'ivers.... oh hell no, Onrack - go back to the bottle and spin us another one.

- Abyss, finds much inspiration in the bottom of a bottle. And no, that was not a double-entendre. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Veilside]

Onrack really isn't all that close to Jarrack, I think you're taking things just a tad too far and seeing things where there's nothing to be seen.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;191944 said:

Probably the wrong place to make take this up, but.

I doubt there exist any other D'ivers then the ones that were created during the first human empire. D'ivers don't seem like a natural appearing event... on the other hand I'm not quite sure how you become a soletaken either, except eating claypigons

I was writing an FAQ about this - link - and I was comfortable with the notion that all D'ivers originated in the First Empire, but the questions marks are Mogora & all the D'ivers seen on the Path of Hands in DG.

Is Mogora old enough to be a FE survivor? Her Dal Honese ethnicity argues against it, as far as I can tell. And are we to believe that such a huge population of D'ivers survived from FE times without doing anything or being more widely known?

If there is anything to change or be added to the FAQ, please let me know.

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;192223 said:

I was writing an FAQ about this - link - and I was comfortable with the notion that all D'ivers originated in the First Empire, but the questions marks are Mogora & all the D'ivers seen on the Path of Hands in DG.

Is Mogora old enough to be a FE survivor? Her Dal Honese ethnicity argues against it, as far as I can tell. And are we to believe that such a huge population of D'ivers survived from FE times without doing anything or being more widely known?

If there is anything to change or be added to the FAQ, please let me know.

It's possible that millions of soletaken and D'ivers were created during the last days of the empire. It's not unlikely that thousands of D'ivers and Soletaken still existed at the time of the Path of Hands... and still do around the world.

A lot of them might have been living relatively normal lives across the world, like Gryllen seems to have done before The Path of hands.

[Danyah]

Try to lead a normal life as d'ivers Dhenrabi.

[Veilside]

Danyah;192838 said:

Try to lead a normal life as d'ivers Dhenrabi.

Easy, unshift into your human form voila :heyhey:

[Dag]

Sorry if that question was already discussed somewhere else, but... Well, I think I understand approximately how the D'ivers came to be. Still... errm... What/who decided which FORM they would take...?

I mean, if they were created in the ritual that destroyed the First Empire, which was an event on a kind of cataclysmic scale, huge, dangerous, unpredictable etc. - were their D'ivers forms created just, like, accidentally?

Or did they all gather around the fire before starting the ritual and did a jolly "draw-out-of-hat" round, like: "What did you get? Oh, a rat... Ha! I'm gonna be a dhenrabi!" "Oh, damn... Wanna trade bloodflies for a nice pack of wolves, anyone...?"

And if it was just a random choice... Why is the number of forms we've encountered in the books so far limited? I mean, why are there no D'ivers vultures, goldfish, bhederin, worms etc. etc...?