[Gem Windcaster]

caladanbrood; said:

Keep your hair on kids - I find Gem's attitude annoying, so I'm allowed to respond in kind.

You're welcome, hope you enjoyed it. :heyhey:

caladanbrood; said:

I disagree with your theory, Gem, because there is nothing to support it and everything to disagree with it. That's also why I'm rather incredulous about it. "Some characters can be wrong" is not evidence.

Ofcourse nothing supports it. I was not trying to be smart. Heck, I hardly believe it myself. I was just trying some wild speculation. I can't understand why you don't just prove me wrong. If that annoys you, I guess it's your loss, not mine. I'm enjoying every second.

Brood, I still don't like your attitude, but then I don't have to take it seriously. I'll think of that next time.

Set said:

There's nothing to definitively disprove your theory Gem, I just prefer mine.

That is fine. As I said, I don't have a fixed idea, I am just wildly speculating.

[caladanbrood]

Gem Windcaster;186114 said:

I can't understand why you don't just prove me wrong. If that annoys you, I guess it's your loss, not mine. I'm enjoying every second.

Brood, I still don't like your attitude, but then I don't have to take it seriously. I'll think of that next time.

That's not what annoys me;) I can't prove you wrong, because the evidence is all things said by characters in the book - which you'll just say is unreliable.

I would hope you don't take it seriously, that would be rather disturbing - it's an internet forum, after all

[Cluracan AbSylvas]

I don't really mind anyone's tone, and rarely take myself seriously... but on Edgewalker --

In the conversation between Udinaas, Ruin, Seren Pedac and Clip in which the origins of the Tiste are discussed (sry @ work no page #'s) a number of "elemental forces" are discussed; dark, light, shadow, fire, earth, air... before the list can be continued Ruin walks away. These forces are suggested as progenitors to the Tiste "first children" and Elder gods are waived off as anomalous and annoying.

Given that Edgewalker stated that he was/is an elemental force... which do you think fits best? I still vote for shadow, he's bound there, he influences the realm and its inhabitants and is a past ruler of the realm (if I remember correctly). I don't think that this necessarily means that Edgewalker = Scabandari. Scabandari's appelation "Father Shadow" was given to him by the Edur... but we know that he assumed control of the realm through the assassination of the Edur royal line. Is it possible he inherited the name when he took control, from Edgewalker?

Chewing on thoughts,

Clu

[Gem Windcaster]

Cluracan AbSylvas said:

I don't really mind anyone's tone, and rarely take myself seriously... but on Edgewalker --

In the conversation between Udinaas, Ruin, Seren Pedac and Clip in which the origins of the Tiste are discussed (sry @ work no page #'s) a number of "elemental forces" are discussed; dark, light, shadow, fire, earth, air... before the list can be continued Ruin walks away. These forces are suggested as progenitors to the Tiste "first children" and Elder gods are waived off as anomalous and annoying.

Given that Edgewalker stated that he was/is an elemental force... which do you think fits best? I still vote for shadow, he's bound there, he influences the realm and its inhabitants and is a past ruler of the realm (if I remember correctly). I don't think that this necessarily means that Edgewalker = Scabandari. Scabandari's appelation "Father Shadow" was given to him by the Edur... but we know that he assumed control of the realm through the assassination of the Edur royal line. Is it possible he inherited the name when he took control, from Edgewalker?

Chewing on thoughts,

Clu

This is very much along the lines of what I have been thinking. Sometimes I have a hard time expressing my thoughts - that's why I tend to get 'annoying' - I know there's more to what I think, I just need people to dig it out for me.

caladanbrood; said:

That's not what annoys me;) I can't prove you wrong, because the evidence is all things said by characters in the book - which you'll just say is unreliable.

I didn't really say that - I said we don't always take their words for it. What I meant was that characters sometimes lie, or leave things out, or just don't know the whole story. The characters are not unreliable, but everything they say is up for interpretation.
And yeah, I kinda got the part where you couldn't prove me wrong.
Seriously though, you're welcome to try, because I am here for the best argument, not for being right.

caladanbrood; said:

I would hope you don't take it seriously, that would be rather disturbing - it's an internet forum, after all

LOL I only enjoy when people get annoyed by me - I laugh and get this tingling sensation - pathetic I know. :heyhey: I think I just can't take myself seriously at all.

[airheadgreg]

Has anyone thought that Edgewalker isn't his actual name? I mean in GotM Cotillion is refered to as 'the Rope' so this could suggest that Edgewalker walks the edges of every warren (inc. chaos) and so isn't actually attributed to any of them...

But being skeletal wouldn't that suggest he was once human and died or has a link to death? Maybe the god of death with regards to Holds rather than warrens but was 'umffed' when K'rul made the warrens...

-Greg

[BridgeBurner]

I may be wrong...

But somewhere in one of Udinaas's ramblings there is a part about the Andii leaving Mother Dark because they found out who their father was, and I recall something about the first Andii/Edur/Liosan being closer related than they thought.

I read that as Mother Dark and Father Light having created all of them. If you want, I can put up a theory of why that is not farfetched, using the play of light and dark, and how their relations/positions towards each other created dark, shadow and light Tistes, with time evolving as it does.

The whole Father Shadow thing always bugged me anyway, with Scabandari Bloodeye usurping that name after killing/doing who/what he did. So I wouldn't be surprised if Father Shadow is a hoax.

As for Edgewalker, the whole 'who is Edgewalker' discussion reminds me of RJ fanboys/girls discussing the whole 'who is Demandred' thing.

[tiam]

it seems edgewalker was called this prior to the sundering making his current situation bitterly ironic

[Danyah]

Is he bound to Shadow/Meanas, or is he bound to Emurlahn? In both NoK and TB, we see him wandering Kellanved's piece of the cake, though he refers to shadow and emurlahn as being the same.

We also lear he is an usurper who didn't get "entombed" like the others (the price for failiure, still I fared better than others), but he was still enslaved, like the hounds of shadow (see NoK, where he says to Kiska "the hounds and I are akin, bound to shadow in our own way").

From his conversation with the demon Jhedel, we might assume Edgewalker took Shadow away from him and bound the demon to the Obelisk. Somehow, that points out that he must have come in after the sundering, because before, it was occupied by the Edur and their kings. So that excludes Father Shadow/Scabby.

Furthermore, Father Shadow is the title for Scabby, given to him his Edur worshippers. Still he is an ascendant, like Rake and Osserc, who both have their own worshippers. Scabby has nothing equal too FL and MD. They are elemental forces at least, elder gods at best.

[BridgeBurner]

Aardvark;189317 said:

Furthermore, Father Shadow is the title for Scabby, given to him his Edur worshippers. Still he is an ascendant, like Rake and Osserc, who both have their own worshippers. Scabby has nothing equal too FL and MD. They are elemental forces at least, elder gods at best.

I agree. As I said earlier here, I think Father Shadow is a Hoax.

[Dolorous Menhir]

airheadgreg;189276 said:

Has anyone thought that Edgewalker isn't his actual name? I mean in GotM Cotillion is refered to as 'the Rope' so this could suggest that Edgewalker walks the edges of every warren (inc. chaos) and so isn't actually attributed to any of them...

But being skeletal wouldn't that suggest he was once human and died or has a link to death? Maybe the god of death with regards to Holds rather than warrens but was 'umffed' when K'rul made the warrens...

-Greg

The problem with that is that there were no humans at the time of the RG prologue, yet Edgewalker was already on the go.

tiam;189307 said:

it seems edgewalker was called this prior to the sundering making his current situation bitterly ironic

Kurald Emurlahn probably had edges even when it was complete.

[tiam]

Eg seem to be human shaped on the whole like Krul and Mael. It also seems that EG can change their shapes quite a bit.

He was also called Edgewalker prior to the sundering making his aspect vague. It seems unlikely that hed walk the edges of KE when hes an EG and Scabby had only just come to this world. In anycase its possible that KILs azath is under drift Avalii.

In anycase Edgewalker could have been imprisoned by KIL and Rake. His being busy could have been he himself usurping KE. KIL then forced him to serve the boundaries. It makes sense that hes been there longer than the 3 dragons and Edgewalker was in fact the first prisoner of shadow

[tjc52]

It sounded more like Rake was willing to help in cleaning Emurlahn with Kilmandaros because Edgewalker was busy, implying that Edgewalker would have done so himself if he hadn't been busy. Admittedly, that seems to make Edgewalker a lot more potent that he would seem to be from tBH, but if he has agents etc, he must be more than he seems.

[Danyah]

Nope, because Eggy probably chained Jhedel, so at best he is the second prisoner... which I doubt.

There is mention that the sundering of Emurlahn took a long, long time. Between the time the sundering started (Scabby spilling royal Edur blood, maybe his Elder siblings), and the time he moves the Edur to Wu as Father Shadow (and subsequently gets his skull crushed, around the timeof Rake/Kilmandaros scene), there may have been a lot of attempts to take over the realm. It is possible that Edgewalker is allready enslaved a long time. His duty is the same as the task Rake and Kilmandaros take up to themselves: to protect Shadow from intruders/usurpers.

Let's take the Rake/Kilmandaros conversation as a start...

So at that time I think Draconus was still free, since he was around at the destruction of Kallors empire, which happens way in the future. Exit Draconus.

Edgewalker was known by that time, while Scabby got his brains pulped a short while ago. Exit Scabby. On top of that, he is no EG either.

Leaves MD, FL, Grizzin Farl, Sechul Lath or some other yet unknown character.

I'm not yet ready to place bets...

[tiam]

i don think we can count NOK references. Just as GOTM has changed so have Eriksons writing errr 'evolved' since GOTM and NOK. Also were does it say that Jhedel was there before Edgewalker.

Yes edgewalker was busy but it seems possible that him being busy could have been a cover for him to make his play for shdow. It also were Rake meets Sillanah which explains how rake chained 3 dragons. He had Silanah, KIL and himslef

[phart]

tiam;189427 said:

i don think we can count NOK references. Just as GOTM has changed so have Eriksons writing errr 'evolved' since GOTM and NOK. Also were does it say that Jhedel was there before Edgewalker.

Yes edgewalker was busy but it seems possible that him being busy could have been a cover for him to make his play for shdow. It also were Rake meets Sillanah which explains how rake chained 3 dragons. He had Silanah, KIL and himslef

NOK of is a really recent book though but was written by ICE so possible that there may be discrepancies.

[Danyah]

NoK was first released in 2005, I guess when SE was still writing TB. I believe the story was "synchronized" by both the authors, so I guess it's reliable.

And Jhedel vowes to destroy "Eggy and all those who came after". (First chapter of NoK) So I just assume he chained Jhedel and took his place. And failed somewhere along the line... so that would indeed support tjc52s theory that he was occupied elsewhere defending shadow against intruders. I think Edgewalker is his slave name, because his job as a slave to shadow is protecting it's borders.

Unlike the dogs, he is no slave to ST and C, so that means he is either slave to the realm itself, or someone else is having a say over KE too.

[tiam]

Its not that recent surely? and its factual content cannot surely count towards Eriksons work. The main plot with Temper and the evvents of the first sword do but a mention at begining to introduce the shadow realm is a bit of s stretch.

Aardvark- If its his 'slave' name then why is he called it prior to the cleansing of KE.

[Danyah]

NoK is quite factual. Edgewalker walks Shadow because he feels there is a conjunction coming up, and passes and usurper of old, who has long forgotten who he was, because of being chained there for almost forever. Edgewalker reminds him, Jedhel starts threatening, to no effort.

tiam;189434 said:

Aardvark- If its his 'slave' name then why is he called it prior to the cleansing of KE.

I just think that because Rake says to KIL :"You are besieged and Edgewalker is busy elsewhere" as in "expect no help from him protecting cleansing KE".
So my theory is Edgewalker was already enslaved by then, meaning he already tried to get the throne. It's just a theory though... No hard evidence around.

[phart]

tiam;189434 said:

Its not that recent surely? and its factual content cannot surely count towards Eriksons work. The main plot with Temper and the evvents of the first sword do but a mention at begining to introduce the shadow realm is a bit of s stretch.

Aardvark- If its his 'slave' name then why is he called it prior to the cleansing of KE.

2 years old or something, i would think that ICE and Erikson would have talked a lot especially considering the night in question.