[phart]

Dolorous Menhir;185556 said:

I'm not trying to be one of the judges at Nuremberg here. I'm just explaining how I formed my opinion of the Errant, since Brood questioned it.

It's not the result of a deep logical analysis of events and motivations, it's how I reacted emotionally to what happened.

LOL i wouldn't expect anyone to, just making conversation on it and why i think its wrong to blame the tools rather than the wielder, though i wasn't thinking of the Nazi's when i wrote that just war in general. I can also see there was no logical analysis deep or otherwise involved ;-)

Cool man i was just saying i disagree, sorry if it came across the wrong way, wasn't having a go just making a comment.

I can't blame Trull for even the Ceda, but i can and will have a go at the errant.

[Apsalar Shadowdancer]

Yeah, in America the term "Gang Banger" has 2 meanings. One would be a member of a violent gang, and the other would have to do with... well.... a large group of people severely lacking cloths and restraint

Anyway...... MY point was that the blame should be placed at both Sirryn, after all he swung the blade, and the Errent. I was just making a bad analogy.

[blewin]

I feel for Trull the most out of all the deaths in RG (over Toc). Trull deserves some good after all he's gone through! That Errant just doesn't learn his lessons.... I'd treasure the moment very much when he comes face to face with the Master of the Deck.

[Lancelot]

Mk I Toc learnt how to make them by watching Tool.(MOI) And retained said knowledge in Toc Mk II.

[BridgeBurner]

Frankly, I find Toc's death the more tragic one.

Trull was killed by a brute, from behind. The Errant did some nudging there, but I wonder how much it really affected the end result. That Patriotist was going to look for Gnol anyway, and it was obvious that both Chancellor and Emperor would be in the Arena. I know the Errant admitted being responsible, but with Trull looking for Rhulad and that Patriotist looking for his precious Chancellor, I suspect that this would have happened even if the Errant wouldn't have acted. Maybe he might have prevented it by acting, as in letting Trull notice the other approaching.

Toc, on the other hand, was killed while Tool was watching him saving time for the Awl children to get clear of the battlefield. If Tool had known it was Toc down there, he could have saved him by sending in the Barghast earlier. He didn't know, and he'll be haunted by this, regardless if Toc will return or not...

[Apsalar Shadowdancer]

The two things I can see the Errant affecting here are:

1. Trull not noticing the man sneeking up behind him, note the owl*.
2. The knife piercing his heart, not his lung or some other not immediately lethal area.

The combination of those two are the reasons that Trull died. If, even in his grief, Trull noticed the man he may have lived. Also if he had be stabbed in the shoulder or the lung or anywhere else QB or on another Malazan mage may have been able to get to him in time to save him.


*There is a theory going around that the owls that seem to be comonly refered to in both MT and RG are signs of the Errant's nudge. We only really see overt refferences to owls in Lether.

[BridgeBurner]

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

The two things I can see the Errant affecting here are:

1. Trull not noticing the man sneeking up behind him, note the owl*.

I give you that.

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

2. The knife piercing his heart, not his lung or some other not immediately lethal area.

But not this one. We're talking about a professional killer here.

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

The combination of those two are the reasons that Trull died. If, even in his grief, Trull noticed the man he may have lived. Also if he had be stabbed in the shoulder or the lung or anywhere else QB or on another Malazan mage may have been able to get to him in time to save him.

That's what I meant by mentioning The Errant might have prevented it by acting.

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

*There is a theory going around that the owls that seem to be comonly refered to in both MT and RG are signs of the Errant's nudge. We only really see overt refferences to owls in Lether.

I seem to recall Bottle saying Owls can see dead spirits. Maybe that's why they have been abundant in Lether?

[caladanbrood]

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

2. The knife piercing his heart, not his lung or some other not immediately lethal area.

I think you're underestimating Sirryn there - he's clearly a nasty piece of work, and a Finadd on top of that - he'll know where to stab someone to kill them, the Errant needed nothing to do with that aspect.

edit: Ah, BB got there first.

[blewin]

BridgeBurner;186618 said:

Frankly, I find Toc's death the more tragic one.

Trull was killed by a brute, from behind. The Errant did some nudging there, but I wonder how much it really affected the end result. That Patriotist was going to look for Gnol anyway, and it was obvious that both Chancellor and Emperor would be in the Arena. I know the Errant admitted being responsible, but with Trull looking for Rhulad and that Patriotist looking for his precious Chancellor, I suspect that this would have happened even if the Errant wouldn't have acted. Maybe he might have prevented it by acting, as in letting Trull notice the other approaching.

Toc, on the other hand, was killed while Tool was watching him saving time for the Awl children to get clear of the battlefield. If Tool had known it was Toc down there, he could have saved him by sending in the Barghast earlier. He didn't know, and he'll be haunted by this, regardless if Toc will return or not...

yes, still tragic. But I picked Trull because I haven't seen Toc for a long while. man, but how ecstatic I was to see Toc's reappearance! only to see him killed.. *cry*

SE's done it again! Onrack/Trull, Tool/Toc. hey, both Onrack and Tool got the better deal... wonder whether they might feature in the next few volumes.

[Tif the Barber Boy]

Apsalar Shadowdancer;186669 said:

The two things I can see the Errant affecting here are:
1. Trull not noticing the man sneeking up behind him, note the owl*.
2. The knife piercing his heart, not his lung or some other not immediately lethal area.

My impression from reading that passage was that the Errant's nudge resulted in Sirryn taking a path to the arena that allowed him to enter behind Trull, where is shadow wouldn't all in front of him. So I guess that's the sneaky part.

[percival]

i was most upset about poor little kettle dying. aww.. only a sweet child and all however at least she will live forever as an azath house... maybe that is all she ever was..

i thought the book wasnt bad, took a lot of time to do a great deal though. icarium has now vanished and karsa said he was after someone else. silchas and gang took forever to walk to the gate to the tundra but kilvana got there in moments as did the three sisters whenever they chose to it seemed.

the adjunct has a schedule that is taking them elsewhere and obviously knew withal could break the sword. the tlan are fighting on another continent. aspalar and ganoes didnt appear.

will like to see where it all goes next.

[BridgeBurner]

Tif the Barber Boy;186805 said:

My impression from reading that passage was that the Errant's nudge resulted in Sirryn taking a path to the arena that allowed him to enter behind Trull, where is shadow wouldn't all in front of him. So I guess that's the sneaky part.

After thinking about it, the Errant's action may have been to let Smiles not kill that Patriotist when he was going to the secret tunnel. There was some mentioning about how they were lucky not to have killed the guy walking to that.

Benefit: Bonehunters get a secret tunnel to enter the city.
Bad thing: they let the patriotist in, who kills Trull

[Gem Windcaster]

BridgeBurner;186830 said:

After thinking about it, the Errant's action may have been to let Smiles not kill that Patriotist when he was going to the secret tunnel. There was some mentioning about how they were lucky not to have killed the guy walking to that.

Benefit: Bonehunters get a secret tunnel to enter the city.
Bad thing: they let the patriotist in, who kills Trull

OKay, I may have a bad memory here (I'm re-reading but I haven't gotten to the end yet), what did Sirryn have to do with the marines finding the tunnel? :confused:

[Illuyankas]

Sirryn leads marines to passage in outer walls, soldier lets him in, soldier slips out into Malazans, someone (Smiles?) comments on letting the first go to lead them to here, Seguleh 12th opens door and passes Fid and Cuttle, everyone enters, Quick puts on his pimp hat and helps Fid and the other marines deal with Ruin (walls of magic shaped like the back of a hand) everyone's favourite Edur (obviously Rhulad) dies. That help?

[BridgeBurner]

Illuyankas;186898 said:

Sirryn leads marines to passage in outer walls, soldier lets him in, soldier slips out into Malazans, someone (Smiles?) comments on letting the first go to lead them to here.

Exactly. And yes, it was Smiles who commented on them being lucky to not have killed Sirryn when they spotted him...

[Illuyankas]

I just have this image of Quick as a pimp stuck in my head now. I didn't think he could get more awesome, but I couldn't have been more wrong.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

BridgeBurner;186678 said:

I seem to recall Bottle saying Owls can see dead spirits. Maybe that's why they have been abundant in Lether?

I cant see that seeing ghosts would rapidly increase a particular species' fertility rates. I think the owl was certainly a symbol of the Errant's nudge, seems to be more likely.

Perhaps the Errant has a soletaken owl form? [/crazy theory]

[Gem Windcaster]

Illuyankas;186898 said:

Sirryn leads marines to passage in outer walls, soldier lets him in, soldier slips out into Malazans, someone (Smiles?) comments on letting the first go to lead them to here, Seguleh 12th opens door and passes Fid and Cuttle, everyone enters, Quick puts on his pimp hat and helps Fid and the other marines deal with Ruin (walls of magic shaped like the back of a hand) everyone's favourite Edur (obviously Rhulad) dies. That help?

I remember that someone let them in, but I didn't think it was Sirryn when I read it. Was he named? Or do you know it was him from some other information? I don't wanna jump ahead in my re-read...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Sirryn didnt let them in, but he was on the run from the battle and led the Bonehunters to the secret entrance. They simply followed him at a distance, and on the way in, met the guy who opened the door for Sirryn, forget his name (if it even was mentioned). In any case, he was just a deserting Letherii soldier, no-one special.

While it wasnt Sirryn who personally opened the door, it was him that led the Bonehunters there, so it was his fault.

[Gem Windcaster]

Thelomen Toblerone;186954 said:

Sirryn didnt let them in, but he was on the run from the battle and led the Bonehunters to the secret entrance. They simply followed him at a distance, and on the way in, met the guy who opened the door for Sirryn, forget his name (if it even was mentioned). In any case, he was just a deserting Letherii soldier, no-one special.

While it wasnt Sirryn who personally opened the door, it was him that led the Bonehunters there, so it was his fault.

Thanks for clearing that up. Can't say I can see much linkage between Trull's death and the Bonehunters finding the tunnel though...