[Silander]

So far I've used the White-wolf to pretty good effect (but as mentioned before it only works well if every one is the same race). I ran a malazan-like game as well set in a world of my own deseigning, using 'path magic' and had to put a good bit of work into the rituals for each level for each path. So far I think I've only deseigned rituals for 6 or 7 paths.
Currently I'm writing a Malazan game for a games convention in the TRI-stat system and the more I look at it the more I think a cross between it and GURPS would be perfect.
I have to say I recently played a Con game of Godsend agenda written by the gent who wrote the game. Its run in the D6 system and that could work very well as well as would CJ Carella'a Witchcraft - but only if you were all mages or adepts of some sort I think.
Also I can't agree enough on the subject of maths - (shakes fist) my arch Nemesis.

[Silander]

Hey was asked by KArsa Orlong on the malazan empire forums to check this out.
We were discussing using various games systems to replicate the malazan world.
I would be for using tri-stat or GURPS.
I'll just go over gurps quickly.
I'll start with warren magic.
First each warren should be pretty dear. Normally magery +3 is 35pts but in this case drawing upon a warren means you can step into it and travel at exceptional speeds. This is essentially a form of teleport (other). In order to factor this into the cost of the warren just treat it as a self powered knack (Pg 96 of 2nd ed. GURPS magic). It may be considered a diffrent spell such as gate, seeing as several people can step into the opened warren. Lets just say its teleport other: thats 2% of the cost to create an item that wud let you do that spell. In this case 3000, so it costs 60. That can be brought up or down to taylor your needs. (You could argue that moranth munitions being drawn to an open warren is a big flaw and shave a few point of it. )
A warren would be aspected (shadow, healing, mind etc). There are rules in GURPS magic, again on page 94. Leveled 1-5. This is a bonus added to the warren type but subtracting from opposed magics.
Charge what you will for these levels but 10pts would be appropriate.
So now you ahve your warren. To activate it or open it you cud ask for an INT+ warren level roll or make it a skill, adding the warren level as a bonus (the way spells work in GURPS).
Next for spells, well do away with pre-requisties esp. from colleges that wouldn't fit the 'theme' of the warren. Collect all the spells that would seem to fit the warren type and make a new school -or warren.
Now to powering your spells.
Opening a warren is to draw upon a high mana zone. After each spell all the mana used is re-covered the next round but one must have the right amount of mana to cast the spell.
Area effects. In GURPS they are hideously expensive so I suggest a mana pool.
There are a few ways of doin this and I'm open to suggestions 1)make the pool a factor of already existing stats, say the HT stat times the mages level in warren so a mage with HT 12 and meanas 3 wud have 33 mana point plus 12 from his HT if he was in desperate need.
2)Extra fatigue: warren use only 2pts/point. (or 1pt if you prefer)
3)A combo of both. A pool with the potential to add the extra fatigue to that pool for epic effects.
As for rituals these could be purchased as knacks or as ritual, path magic as per GURPs spirits, which have excellent 'flavour', I think.
There are advantages that help in these. 5pt talents that let you perform a ritual without the need for one of the 3 requisite, which are I think, time, place and component.
Other magic and effects are really easy to replicate, e.g. when Paran is being charged by (a hound I think?) he draws a card on the ground which is then stamped on and the creature disappears. This is easily represented by Runic magic or a variant there of.
The effects can be pretty much picked out of the books as its known that SE used GURPS, e.g. bauchelain explains to mancy that he has divined Emancipor Reese's death and "it appears you die laughing". Which is pretty much the death vision spell.
I think the trick is to imagine that you are writing up the games you run for your freinds as a story, one where you have to leave out such things as mechanics and just describe everything.
Well thats just my opinion on the whole thing. Let me know if there are questions or if ya want to add/adjust this?

[Karsa Orlong]

@ Silander - Thanks for putting this up. Sounds interesting. I would really like to see your WW notes and conversions. Do you have them written down in a document or so?
You mention D6...as i said before, I think this mechanic could work very well for Malazan. It is very flexible and it allows for great ranges of power.

Your GURPS notes also were interesting. A bit short for a non-GURPS player as i don't understand a lot of what you said :redface:
Was your second post an email to your friends? Just curious ^^

[Silander]

Hey Karsa, well I have them all written up in a copybook. One or two of the rituals are typed up in a document, or partially so anyways. The GURPS thing was just something I've given a little thought to, just in my head really I haven't actually sat down and looked at like I have with the Tri-stat. I've just finished writing a game set in Lether. The system is tri-stat and I have to say I'm very happy with it. I need to explain it better but the mechanics are pretty good and I understand them so as the Gm thats all that matters in the beginning.
I'm a bit forgetful so I can't remember the second post but I think I may have cut and pasted it? so it might have seemed out of context.
Is there a way to contact members without displaying addresses etc publicly? When I type everything on I'll send it to ya if you like. I can send the Tri-stat version to you straight away. It needs work for variant magics but the main points for warren and hold magics are fleshed out.

[Karsa Orlong]

Silander,

That would be great! I'd like to see both your versions, WW and Tri-Stat, if you are willing to share And your comments to the GURPS Version were interesting as well. If you are willing, you could go into more detail over at starvald. I'm sure Mal would love to see those notes as well (he's a GURPS Fan )
Do you have any messenger programms? Like MSN or ICQ? We could exchange contact details via these things. My MSN addy is in my profile or in every post (top righthand corner).

[Silander]

Hmmm, well I use gchat or skype. My skype is neroli2, in Ireland, if that helps the search. Or I could just post stuff up on Stavald? I can just cut and paste the stuff I have either but that would be a huge post and I dunno if that would annoy people..?

[Karsa Orlong]

Hmm never used those messengers.

Sure, you can post it on Starvald, no problem. It is possible that there is a maximal post-lenght but that is easily solved - multiple posts And i don't think it would annoy people...the sub-forum is just for that...buidling an p&p rpg. So go ahead

[Silander]

Karsa - Posted it there. might as well throw it up here, some one might be interested, I can always remove it if they aren't!

Hold Magic
Hold magic is less versatile than warrens, but raw, messier, wild and destructive. I have selected spells that are area effects, powerful and definitely not subtle to try and represent this. I feel intricate or localised spells aren't in the style of the holds. However illusions seem common in Lether so I have included these.
In this case the player mages are using the Empty hold.
There are four main parts to the sorcery rules.

1.Attacking – unleashing the energy of the hold.
2.Defending – warding, protecting, shielding against attacks.
3.Spells- Instantaneous magical effects that are purchased as skills are.
4.Rituals used for attacking and defending.

Attacking
For attacking with the raw power of the Hold use the Special Attack ability, Pg. 32 of Tri-stat dx. This decides the attack's type and damage and what abilties it can have.
The special ranged attack: sorcery, (not to be confused with the above)
costs 4pts/level and adds to the ACV when you want to attack by unleashing with sorcery (exactly the way ACV and ranged attack: bow, works for a longbow. )
The special attack has the ability:Spreading. It extends out in a wave or cone like shape, capable of attacking several at once (Pg. 34) but it has the defect short ranged (Pg 36).
This does max. 20pts of damage per level of special attack purchased.
In order to attack with this special attack ability, roll ACV plus Special ranged attack (Sorcery).
The resulting number is cross referenced on the damage chart on Pg. 68 (or on the character sheet) to determine damage inflicted.
This action takes a full round, no other actions can be taken (except minor actions such as shouting, standing).
Every attack in this way costs three magic points (see 'spells'for a description of magic points).

Defending
To instantaneously defend against an attack, I am using the force field rules Pg. 19. The shield effects have a PMV of 2 (see Pg 10). That is the shield lasts for 5 combat rounds and extends out from the mage for 1m.
For each level purchased, incoming damage is reduced by 20.
In order to activate this defense roll DCV plus the ranged defense (ward)-a melee skill . This action takes up one full combat round.
This costs 4pts/level.
Every defense in this manner costs three magic point (see 'spells').

Example: Ceda Kuru Qan stands upon the tiled floor of the throne room and draws upon the pure power of the Empty hold. The Ceda has the Special ranged attack (Empty hold magic) at level 5 ( costs 20pts). His ACV is 6. He spends 3 magic points to power the attack, rolls 2d12's (yep, he is that powerful) to get under 11 and gets a 4 and a 2.
A success! A six on the chart is max. damage – in this case 100pts (level 5 times 20)!!!
Hannon Mosag hastily throws up a powerful ward (level 5 forcefield- costs 20pts). A white wave of coruscating energy slams into the warlock king.The walls tremble as the hapless Edur desperately holds off the attack. The pillars begin to warp and melt with the conflagration of energies unleashed. 100Pts is a lot and everything in the way suffers under the onslaught. The Warlock king's barrier subtracts just enough to keep him alive...for now!

Spells
There are two choices for spells, Dynamic powers or Power flux and they are almost identical. I am using power flux (Pg. 29) but if you prefer to call it Dynamic power, go ahead. Power flux suits the Holds better I think. You might use Dynamic sorcery to make warrens more expensive as they are more versatile and can be entered into, alternatively you could just use power flux and charge an extra point cost for that ability based on a similar power (such as pocket dimension which can be altered to meet your needs).
Here are the costs for all sorcery.
Internal Magic: 3 points per level. Suitable for minor adepts, hedge magic, wax witches etc.
Hold magic: 5 points per level. Effects must be based upon theHold type.
Warrens: 6 points per level. Effects must be based upon the Warren type.
Dragon Deck/Divinations: 2 points per level. Any fairly minor divination type magic.
Elemental/Spirit Magic: 4 points per level. Elemental 'themed' magic.
For each level purchased, five 'flux' points are granted except in this case I will call them magic points.
Each spell has a point cost and a description. Once the character is 'used up' they must wait to regenerate. When the mage's magic points are gone he can no longer cast spells, erect a shield or attack with sorcery.
Read the entry for Power flux carefully to understand how this power works and often the mage's magic points are restored (consider the theme to be the hold or warren in question).
Each separate spell is a skill that requires study. The cost is one point per level (the spell already requires the purchase of power flux to power it, as well as it's own cost and study to learn it), except some powerful spells which cost more for a single casting.
To activate a spell successfully, roll under Mind+Spell.
Example:Bottle needs to scout the trail ahead. He has a spell that will let him see through the eyes of the rat he spies in the long grass a head. He has mind Stat of 7 and the spell (skill) at 2 for a total of 9.
He spends the magic point to fuel the spell. He rolls 2d8 and gets a 2 and a 6. Success!
Bottle clamps his mind on the 'life sparks of the rat's squirming soul and guides it up ahead so he can scout the trail. Behind him the ungrateful marines whisper abuse at him!
Should a spell roll fail then the magic point is not 'lost'. The point is only used up on a successful casting or on a critical failure.
Should a critical failure occur, not alone does the spell fail but it may even have further dread consequences, such as confusion, temp. stat loss, injury or something else that is inconvenient. In fact the consequences may not be immediately obvious.

Rituals
Hold sorcery often uses a ritual to attack or defend with, relying on gross power to win the day. Warren users often makes use of a ritual before a major combat to buff up their attacks or defenses. They need to.
Whilst any mage can unleash their warren or hold there and then often to gain a more powerful effect or a longer lasting.

Solo Rituals
For every minute the mage chants and builds up the attack, they can add one 'ability' (see Pg.s 32-34) to their special attack:sorcery or one factor to their force field's PMV.
Instead of just unleashing a wave of sorcery in the usual manner they could build it up for two mins and add the qualities; 'Long range' and 'effects incorporeal'
Instead of just a personal ward the mage could build up the ward for say, 4 mins and protect every one in 100m of him/her (I use the area not the target chart), or have the ward last for ten mins or a combination of both.
Combined Rituals
Two or more mages can weave an attack or defensive ritual between them. In order to do so, each of the mages must have the 'Combination attack' as well as their 'special attack:sorcery'. (Pg 15). The min. casting time is 1min and for every minute the cabal chant for, they may add an ability to the ritual, on top of the normal advantages of using this attack. Instead of using energy points, fell free to use magic points or a combination of both if it suits you, though each participant would still need Combination attack' as well as their 'special attack:sorcery'.
Example: Seren Pedac watches the five Letherii mages prepare their ritual that is intended to wipe out the Edur villages. The mages chant for 59 mins. (why not) and the power between them burgeons so much, that they are forced to spread out a great distance from each other. The group add on 49 extra abilities on to their web of destruction; 'long distance' 5 times (for a distance of up to 100km), indirect 5 times (to negate the distance penalty and allow the ritual to be unleashed out of sight over the hills), burning 5 times, effects incorporeal, penetrates forcefield 5 times, etc. etc.
The mage with the lowest AVC uses his stat : 8. The mages each spend a point to fuel the ritual and add 2 each for the combo rules. They have Special attack: sorcery 3 each.
The weakest mage rolls 2d8 and gets a 1 and a 4, total of 5 which does 75% damage.
They do a total of 60pts each normally so, 300 points. 75% is 225pts to a large area but because they have combined their power they double there normal amount to 450 (accordin to the Tri-stat rules enough to blow up a small meteorite!). .
The ritual leaps eagerly, like a thing alive and illuminates the night sky for miles around as it springs over the crest of the hills. Seren's heart goes out to Trull and his Kin.
Like wise the cabal of mages could build up a shield and extend it ever outwards, increase it's duration and double its protection rate.
Other Rituals
Many rituals have no combat uses. They produce a single effect that lasts longer than a spell or produce effects not covered by the Warrens or holds.
Spirit magic is often comprised of many rituals simply because many of its practioners are tribesmen and ritual is an integral part of their inheritance and culture.
If the ritual merely bestows an ability that the shaman or mage can access to a weapon or person use the 'Transfer power' (Pg. 40).
Other rituals can be purchased as 'Unique attributes' with fixed descriptions, outcomes and costs. If this is the only kind of magic that the adept can perform you can require them to have a prerequisite such as Divine relationship (whether it's with the spirits, your ancestor or a God -Such as D'rek – thats up to you and the player).
The license to cast these rituals shouldn't cost more than 10 or 15 pts.
For rituals that have devastating effects the mage may require rare ingredients, an unusual alignment of the heavens and so on.
Narrating sorcery: When sorcery is employed, often it is accompanied by a distinctive smell and colour. Unleashing of the warrens with out much shaping (or Holds in this case) usually is spectacular, if horrific to behold and the nightmare of all soldiers. Frequently intense light is given off and Erickson uses words such as; coruscating, surges, blossoms, virulent, nimbus and blinding. To describe the movement he often mentions magic rolling, surging, pouring or exploding. Often the smells are musty, spicy or smell of a location such as a desert or marsh (as in Tellan)or dry, cold air (Omtose phellack).
Victims of sorcery are often left; bloated, burned, scorched, stunned. It often sloughs the flesh from their bones and leaves naught but heaps of melted corpses and armour behind.

Resisting magic: All things have resistance to magic as pointed out in the books (I think it was Karsa, not sure though). This means that any sorcery roll that is affecting them in an adverse way suffers -3 penalty. Unleashed warrens are just that so it doesn't apply then. It would however count if the spell intended to transform their flesh to marble or wipe their memory.
Some people or races are immune or partially immune to magic such as the Toblakai, in particular Karsa orlong. Some maybe be resistant because of exposure to Otataral dust. This dust completely negates all magic in an area no matter how potent the user. Even a God may not unveil a warren in its presence. Karas Orlong's people rub blood oil from trees in their region, into their skin to make them immune and to frenzy. It seems the trees extract the otataral dust from the ground some how.
This would be represented by the Special defense power (pg. 36) or Immunity on pg 23.

[caladanbrood]

None active at the moment, I'm afraid.

[Slaartibartfast]

For a month now I have been using GURPS and it has been working very well, one crucial diference, I don't use the magic system, the mages are using the modular advantage as we have calculated a system and as it uses fatigue points we don't need mana. It's working very well at the moment and we should be staying with the system.

The campaign is centered on the 2nd book as they form a squad of marines in the 7th legion (the chain of dogs). So far they have left Hissar, so it should be a whopper campaign.

[Silander]

Sounds a little like 'power flux points' from Tri-stat. How does it work? Do they have the Spell only limitation? And is it themed as per each warren?

[Slaartibartfast]

actually it's a system that I found in another forum.

The mage calculates the advantage he wants to converts into a spell with all the parameters (range duration etc), sees how much more it costs over his modular points and converts the exess into fatigue points.

Also it is themed to his own warren so he can't use advanteges that has nothing to do with his warren.

We have two squad mages : tennes and meanas

[Soap]

Slaartibartfast;193485 said:

actually it's a system that I found in another forum.

care to give a link? thanks! :heyhey:

One problem I've been finding with the game slaarti runs (I'm one of his players) is that the moranth munitions are hard to balance. we're using the rules as if they are explosives (obviously), but it just seems to have a huge radius for the damage done...

anyone had similar problems?

[Tsundoku]

Moranth munitions are balanced by being bloody difficult to get. Don't try to nerf how nasty they are, just make sure you don't have hundreds in the party.

They seem to be divided into cussers (concussion explosives), flamers (incendiaries), and crackers (I think theyre armour-piercing). Just use common sense for what the effects might be.
Crackers might punch through a stone wall but won't create massive explosions.
Cussers will be deadly anti-personnel devices, especially in a confined space.
Flamers cause flame damage over a wide area, but no explosive force.

And magic shouldn't be broken down into spell lists. Use levels with "this is an EXAMPLE of what you can do at this level of power" etc. Like I posit earlier about Mage: the Ascension.

Cheers,

La Sombra, simplistic

[Slaartibartfast]

Actually you have 2 more: smokers and sharpers.

Sharpers are kind of like grenades with a shrapnel effect

The problem with warrens is that although they're limited to their own flavour of effects all warrens have a list of common possibilites (warren travel, warren blast, healing etc)

[Tsundoku]

Ah, forgot about sharpers and smokers. Well, they're just antipersonnel and smoke grenades I guess. Or maybe even like "flash-bangs" if you want to sexy them up. Only a cruel bastard would try to have anything like white phosphorus.

Maybe at "level" 2,3 or 4 you could have the ability "Travel Warren: Self" then "Travel Warren: Passengers"? The same goes for the other ncommon abilities, although I think healing isn't that good unless it's Denul.
Direction Sense and other navigation-type skills could modify your rolls. Maybe even Time Sense? That's if you want to have skills like that in there, anyway. Or you could use the "Survival" or "Navigation" skills as a catch-all?

Just pondering ...

Cheers,

La Sombra, doing the same thing he does every night Pinky ...

[Silander]

Ah..I don't know if you've ever heard of Nobilis before? Nobilis as a system is wonderful, providing the players and storyteller trust each other enough not too screw each other up too badly!!
However I would only consider it for an ascendant type game where every one is roughly equal enough or pretty much on a par. It would be an interesting one to run for say a group of local spirits who are confronting some kind of threat to their domain, or people. Or even minor demons in service to Tayshrenn or some other high mage or even another demon etc.
The book is heavy going but there are very little rules really, the only limits are the imagination.
It's one of the finest dice-less games out there (widely considered at least) and besides the book is so damned pretty.

[Karsa Orlong]

Ok, all you GURPS-specialists...head over to starvaldemelain and help flesh this baby out... GURPS - Malazan...come on, you know you want it

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Starvald_Demel...p?showtopic=437

[Silander]

I take it not too many people took the trip to Starvalddemelain then? It's been an age since anyone posted. I put up some ideas there and got some feedback but I know lots of people have some pretty kicking ideas too so it would be great to see what ye think..