[Binder of Demons]

Ok, so the search function doesn't like the word TOC so I'm forced to ask this aloud. Apologies if it's been discussed specifically before.

Is TOC the Elder still alive, and do you think we've seen him in the series so far? There have been several mentions of him which suggest he's not as gone as people think (I can't think of the refs right now, of course :Erm: )

Basically, we've had various references to "the Old Guard" of the Malazan Empire throughout the novels. Now originally, it appeared that most of them were dead or missing (presumed dead). But as of Bonehunters, we've seen the Crust Brothers, Traveller, Hawl, Tayschrenn, Nok, Dujek, ST and Dancer of course, and even Surly is still on the go (now whether she's old guard is another matter?). So, we've seen most of the originals re-appear as very significant individuals.

Now apart from Ameron, whose name doesn't crop up all that often, it just leaves TOC the Elder to make a re-appearance to complete the set of Old Guard.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Who was Toc the Younger's mother again? Was it a sister of Nok, or one of the Crusts?

[Imperial Historian]

Toc the younger's mother was cartheron crusts sister.

As to whether we've seen Toc the elder, well he's the most elusive of the old guard save ameron, we've not had any mentions which definitively point to who he is, though several suggesting he isn't necessarily dead from toc the younger "they never found the body".

all we really know about toc the elder however is that he's a skilled archer.

My personal favourite theory is that he's squint, a skilled archer keeping his head down as we know toc the elder suggested to his son, but there's absoloutely no evidence for that whatsoever other than that he's old.

I've not seen any other theories for the identity of toc the elder though... it could even be that we've not seen him because well, he's dead, not everyone believed to be dead in SE's world can be alive can they?

[Battalion]

That's a good theory. I doubt very much that Toc the Elder is dead, and also think that he would have been mentioned in the books somehwere before now if he is alive. Usually, however, we are given small clues to help us out. Maybe just him being a bowman is enough. I don't know.
I'm trawling through my books now, asking: "Will the real Toc the Elder please stand up." If I find anything, I'll let you know.

[Wither]

From GotM, when Lorn meets Toc the Younger:

She raised her gaze at this. 'I knew your father,' she said. Her smile returned. 'Also a great bowman.'
He ducked his head in reply.
'He was a fine commander too,' Lorn continued, studying the ravaged youth who was now tending to her arm. 'The Empress has regretted his death?'
'Not dead for sure,' Toc interrupted, his tone tight and his single eye averted as he began removing the gauntlet from her hand. 'Disappeared.
'Yes,' Lorn said softly. 'Disappeared since the Emperor's death.' She winced as he pulled away the gauntlet and tossed it aside.


Duiker's recollection in DG
What happened to Toc the Elder, I wonder? Vanishing after the assassinations?I'd always imagined it as Laseen's doing?

Toc the Younger remembering hid father's advice in MOI
I should have. But I never did. Leave the Empire, he said. Find someplace beyond the reach of the court, beyond the commanders and the Claw. Keep your head low, son?
So, the possibilitiy certainly exists for a return to the stage.

As for parentage, also from MOI:
'Come along, Envy. I'll bore you with a detailed recounting of my youth?it'll pass the time. I was born on a ship, you know, and it was more than a few days before Toc the Elder stepped forward to acknowledge his fatherhood?my mother was Captain Cartheron Crust's sister, you see, and Crust had a temper?'

[Dolorous Menhir]

You know, that makes Toc half Napan, like Laseen (assuming the Crust sister was a full Napan, like her brothers). Has it ever been remarked that he's a big brute with blue skin?

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;176986 said:

You know, that makes Toc half Napan, like Laseen (assuming the Crust sister was a full Napan, like her brothers). Has it ever been remarked that he's a big brute with blue skin?

Hmm, no ... but our only physical description of him would have come in GotM, which I don't have handy. But I suspect that at that point, Erikson wouldn't have had Toc Elder & Younger's back-story fully worked out.

[Battalion]

I think Erikson has EVERYTHING worked out. The guy is smarter that smart.

[Alexani]

Plotwise, he has everything worked out. Whether Toc the Younger was blue or not had nothing to do with the plot as far as I could tell, so I doubt that this was planned years ahead of Erikson writing MoI. He can, and he has, made minor mistakes, but nothing to worry about.

If anything, a minor error here just lends credibility to the notion that the different eyecolours of Dassem/Traveller is an error on Eriksons part.

[Dancer+]

It is true however that people's eye colours can change throughout their life, mainly at critical junctures when one is younger however. but the rules of the game could be completely different. For one, ascendancy could change the colour of someone's eyes, or hair etc. It's hard to know, Dassem/Traveller could of somehow 'naturally' changed eye colour in a similar fashion or in a different turn of events. My eye colour changed from blue to green after i attended a christening (when i was younger).

It certainly seems that there could be a possibility of Toc the Elder returning, but the story may not delve there and he could of passed away by now from some other event. It could be brought back just to fill and explain something minor in the future. I'm split on the issue whether I want to see Toc the Elder appear.

[pat5150]

Wish I could help you out. . .:angel:

Patrick

[Dancer+]

Well it might have given us a hint, something in this thread could appear as a revelation in RG. The question is what (TtE or DU/Tr) Unless it was a red herring!

The sooner I get the book the better for my brain, I need something good to read.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think all the barely mentioned background characters will get some screentime before the end of the series. There was a real sense across the first five novels that SE had everything planned out, and that even the most irrelevant throwaway comment in one book could and would be explored later. I feel the same is true for Toc the Elder, and Ameron, and any other such character we're dying to know more about.

[Battalion]

I couldn't agree with that statement more.

Random one liners. They all mean something.

[pat5150]

It's hard to say. . .

Throughout the series SE has been setting up stuff that are in Esslemont's territory. So many of those interesting tidbits might creep up on us in ICE's upcoming novels instead of in the main sequence.

Greymane is a good example of that, Traveller might be another. Same thing goes for Toc the Elder (if he's still alive, though the Emperor's Old Guard are hard to kill) and Ameron.

As for RG, you'll soon have a chance to read it. I wouldn't be surprised if it appeared in some bookstores at some point next week...

Patrick

[Abyss]

pat5150;177038 said:

... I wouldn't be surprised if it appeared in some bookstores at some point next week...

Patrick

Argh!

- Abyss, hope dies eternal.

[Onos]

I think the key quote is the one where Toc the Elder tells Toc to get away from the influence of the empire. My thoughts are he is somewhere on the outside doing his own thing. Probably having an appearance like Urko living in a hut somewhere teaching under priveleged children how to read and write....

Or his hut was on Assail and all hell broke loose in his new back yard!

[Dancer+]

does that mean a certain winner of a certain contest may get the book very soon, like for example in the next few days? :)

[RodeoRanch]

Abyss;177042 said:

Argh!

- Abyss, hope dies eternal.

Don't worry. Our traitorous orders from Amazon UK should arrive soon...yes...soon....

[pat5150]

The Cult of Dessembrae;177050 said:

does that mean a certain winner of a certain contest may get the book very soon, like for example in the next few days? :)

SE's publicist has not emailed to let me know that the prizes have shipped yet, so keep those fingers crossed!

Patrick

[Blacksox]

I want that book next week. Will pay extra to have it. MUST HAVE IT NOW!!!