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did the errant "push" the sea guardain to kill rhulad? and if he did it seems that the errand will play a very important role in the future.
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The Errant, The Sea Guardain and Rhulad
#1
Jesterxr71 
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 12:41 AM
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Where is Dassem Ultor?
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 01:32 AM
(I believe that) Popular belief has the Errant pushing the Guardian to give Brys' knowledge of the forgotten gods to Tehol. His "Karsa come of age" move to kill Rhulad seems to have been done of his own volition; that is to say, from the perspective we see, there is no correlation between the "I am pushed?" question and his killing of Rhulad. It's portrayed as incidental, at least in my mind.
I imagine a deconstructionist would smile, snap his fingers, and start pounding away at what I've just said; that the poignancy of Rhulad's resurrection after Brys had died stinks of the Errant's involvement, but I will leave that argument to the literary critics.
I imagine a deconstructionist would smile, snap his fingers, and start pounding away at what I've just said; that the poignancy of Rhulad's resurrection after Brys had died stinks of the Errant's involvement, but I will leave that argument to the literary critics.
#3
Jesterxr71
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 04:43 PM
the part that i am wondering is the sea guardian asks "I am...pushed" then after the guardian kills rhulad, the errant whispers, "And once more". just seems to me that the errand had rhulad killed.
#4
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 06:41 PM
I would have to read the passage again closely, but my understanding was that it was the Guardian's own decision to kill Rhulad, since he knew nothing of Rhulad's ability to resurrect and thought he was just putting him out of his misery.
#5
Dark Mac
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 11:20 PM
Jesterxr71;172935 said:
the part that i am wondering is the sea guardian asks "I am...pushed" then after the guardian kills rhulad, the errant whispers, "And once more". just seems to me that the errand had rhulad killed.
I think that the "once more" was referring to Rhulad resurrecting.
#7
Silander
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Posted 01 May 2007 - 02:28 AM
Question regarding the Errant... all this talking of pushing and pulling, sounds suspicously like the twins of chance, Oponn.
Are they diffrent? Is one fate, destiny say and the other two just repersent luck? Strangely close aren't they?
Or...is it that the Errant is from the Holds, as such much older rawer and the twins are from an age with Warrens? Begging a multitude of questions, do they have a warren? What warren do tehy make use of?
And if one is just a modren version of the other how come it hasn't occured across the board? Is it a case of worship?
Could it be that as the holds are older rawer (its pointed out by Bugg I think that things have tendancy to get more complicated/sophisticated with time not simpler) that they too have been frozen in place in this area because of the ritual Gothos wove.
Also the Ceda at the end of MT draws from the empty hold, pure power from it. Whats the deal there, whats it's aspect? Did some ne once use it or does it repersent potential or soemthing like that?
Are they diffrent? Is one fate, destiny say and the other two just repersent luck? Strangely close aren't they?
Or...is it that the Errant is from the Holds, as such much older rawer and the twins are from an age with Warrens? Begging a multitude of questions, do they have a warren? What warren do tehy make use of?
And if one is just a modren version of the other how come it hasn't occured across the board? Is it a case of worship?
Could it be that as the holds are older rawer (its pointed out by Bugg I think that things have tendancy to get more complicated/sophisticated with time not simpler) that they too have been frozen in place in this area because of the ritual Gothos wove.
Also the Ceda at the end of MT draws from the empty hold, pure power from it. Whats the deal there, whats it's aspect? Did some ne once use it or does it repersent potential or soemthing like that?
#8
Aptorian
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Posted 01 May 2007 - 06:06 AM
The empty hold is supposed to be death.
The Errant is/was the Master of the Holds, like Paran is the Master of the Deck. Whether this causes some kind of problem now that Gothos ritual is loosing its power is unknown. The Errant seems to be bound by some kind of Oponn'ish rules that he can only act and react to some extent. It's not really understood if this is just some aspect of Luck or if it has something to do with him being Master of the Holds so long that he became worshipped. As we know Ascendants who are worshipped, gods, are bound by their aspects and can only react in certain ways compared to the unalligned like Dassem, K'rul, Oponn, etc.
The Errant is/was the Master of the Holds, like Paran is the Master of the Deck. Whether this causes some kind of problem now that Gothos ritual is loosing its power is unknown. The Errant seems to be bound by some kind of Oponn'ish rules that he can only act and react to some extent. It's not really understood if this is just some aspect of Luck or if it has something to do with him being Master of the Holds so long that he became worshipped. As we know Ascendants who are worshipped, gods, are bound by their aspects and can only react in certain ways compared to the unalligned like Dassem, K'rul, Oponn, etc.
#9 Guest_T'an Aros_*
Posted 01 May 2007 - 04:17 PM
Oponn is very similar to the Errant: both manipulate fate through the actions of others. The difference is that in the Malazan world certain moves are recognised as good or bad luck; Oponn may be the god of chance, but the 'chance' depends on which way they feel fate should move on a particular day, just like the Errant. I don't believe the compulsion, the 'pushing', the Sea Guardian felt was to kill Rhulad, unless he believed he would be able to take Rhulad with him after death to help him with his guarding (in this case the 'pushing' would have been done by Mael, not the Errant). Mael's involvement has to be in this somewhere; the Guardian is after all his. This pushes me to believe that Mael wishes to use Rhulad to achieve his own ends (whatever they may be), and this could also be connected with his (unseen) conversation with the CG at the end of MT.
I doubt the Errant would have wanted Rhulad killed then resurrected again because he surely knows it would bring death, suffering and destruction upon the continent he presides over. Although, naturally, the above conditions are mentioned many times as being ideal circumstances for gods and ascendants, so who knows.
As a side note: the similarities between the Errant and the Twins are striking, but so also is the difference in their status in their respective pantheons. The Errant is a sort of Master of the Holds and controls a lot of what he controls; the Twins, however, despite making their presence known to several characters (Crokus, Corabb), are a relatively minor ascendant. Perhaps this means that Oponn will gain greater power and importance in the coming books - or perhaps it is a sign that the Errant's power and influence will diminish, until he is as relatively minor as the Twins of Chance.
I doubt the Errant would have wanted Rhulad killed then resurrected again because he surely knows it would bring death, suffering and destruction upon the continent he presides over. Although, naturally, the above conditions are mentioned many times as being ideal circumstances for gods and ascendants, so who knows.
As a side note: the similarities between the Errant and the Twins are striking, but so also is the difference in their status in their respective pantheons. The Errant is a sort of Master of the Holds and controls a lot of what he controls; the Twins, however, despite making their presence known to several characters (Crokus, Corabb), are a relatively minor ascendant. Perhaps this means that Oponn will gain greater power and importance in the coming books - or perhaps it is a sign that the Errant's power and influence will diminish, until he is as relatively minor as the Twins of Chance.
#10
Aptorian
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Posted 01 May 2007 - 08:20 PM
T said:
Oponn is very similar to the Errant: both manipulate fate through the actions of others. The difference is that in the Malazan world certain moves are recognised as good or bad luck; Oponn may be the god of chance, but the 'chance' depends on which way they feel fate should move on a particular day, just like the Errant. I don't believe the compulsion, the 'pushing', the Sea Guardian felt was to kill Rhulad, unless he believed he would be able to take Rhulad with him after death to help him with his guarding (in this case the 'pushing' would have been done by Mael, not the Errant). Mael's involvement has to be in this somewhere; the Guardian is after all his. This pushes me to believe that Mael wishes to use Rhulad to achieve his own ends (whatever they may be), and this could also be connected with his (unseen) conversation with the CG at the end of MT.
I doubt the Errant would have wanted Rhulad killed then resurrected again because he surely knows it would bring death, suffering and destruction upon the continent he presides over. Although, naturally, the above conditions are mentioned many times as being ideal circumstances for gods and ascendants, so who knows.
As a side note: the similarities between the Errant and the Twins are striking, but so also is the difference in their status in their respective pantheons. The Errant is a sort of Master of the Holds and controls a lot of what he controls; the Twins, however, despite making their presence known to several characters (Crokus, Corabb), are a relatively minor ascendant. Perhaps this means that Oponn will gain greater power and importance in the coming books - or perhaps it is a sign that the Errant's power and influence will diminish, until he is as relatively minor as the Twins of Chance.
I doubt the Errant would have wanted Rhulad killed then resurrected again because he surely knows it would bring death, suffering and destruction upon the continent he presides over. Although, naturally, the above conditions are mentioned many times as being ideal circumstances for gods and ascendants, so who knows.
As a side note: the similarities between the Errant and the Twins are striking, but so also is the difference in their status in their respective pantheons. The Errant is a sort of Master of the Holds and controls a lot of what he controls; the Twins, however, despite making their presence known to several characters (Crokus, Corabb), are a relatively minor ascendant. Perhaps this means that Oponn will gain greater power and importance in the coming books - or perhaps it is a sign that the Errant's power and influence will diminish, until he is as relatively minor as the Twins of Chance.
Not trying to over analyze.
1 Oponn is annoying to the gods of the known continents because it's expected that they'll mess things up. If say Rake or Cotillion suddenly misses a shot it will be the twins manipulation but it wont mean that the gods will sudenly fall upon the twins... after all it's just their nature, their the imbodiment of chance.
2 We don't actually understand the gods actions, the Errant might actually want Rhulad killed again, again and again twice over, maybe he believes that Rhulad will at some time regain his sanity and with the new found powers he's recieved stand agaisnt the CG.
3...
#11
Kurt Montandon
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Posted 02 May 2007 - 01:09 AM
Aptorian;180758 said:
Not trying to over analyze.
2 We don't actually understand the gods actions, the Errant might actually want Rhulad killed again, again and again twice over, maybe he believes that Rhulad will at some time regain his sanity and with the new found powers he's recieved stand agaisnt the CG.
2 We don't actually understand the gods actions, the Errant might actually want Rhulad killed again, again and again twice over, maybe he believes that Rhulad will at some time regain his sanity and with the new found powers he's recieved stand agaisnt the CG.
Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that he simply wants to create interesting events, to prevent stagnation within an entire civilization. We've got no real evidence that he cares about the CG, one way or another.
#12
Silander
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Posted 18 May 2007 - 06:43 PM
Good point about it being death. that makes tonnes of sense. The descriptions , always threw me. When the Ceda uses the hold at the end of MT its described as blazing white (more like Telas or Kurald liosan) not like descriptions previously of Hoods warren in use. But then what's in a clour? In China, white is the colour associated with death, not black. 
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