[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I apologize if anything here is rehashed. In my time here, I haven't seen most of this stuff brought up.

The first excerpt I would like to print is this:

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Against the flat like thunder
Where the self dwells beneath the eyes
Beneath the blow the bone shattered
And the soul was dragged forth
To writhe in the grip
Of unredeemed vengeance...
The last night of Bloodeye
Author unknown
(Compiled by Tiste Andii Scholars of Black Coral)

[MT pg. 188]

I have been asking myself what could Gothos have possibly pulled out from beneath his shirt? Thanks to a re-read of MT, I believe I have an answer, though it does raise new questions: what if the Finnest was the pommel of a sword? Now, this requires that Gothos give the pommel to Rake, though I don't find that too much of a stretch. Why not give the prescient brother of Silchas the pommel for safe-keeping? "To writhe in the grip of unredeemed vengeance" certainly makes sense, given our knowledge of the sword.

Suddenly, Shadowthrone's stake in defending the throne makes a lot more sense. It allows him to get rid of Andarist (who would want a somewhat sadder name for the sword) and place the weapon into the hands of Traveller. And the singular will required to wield the weapon? Can you imagine possessing the mental strength necassary to bend Scabandari to your will? Now, this could just as easily be a crapshoot, but a pommel makes sense to me. It's small enough to be concealable on Gothos' person while still remaining intriguing enough to pique the interests of the Elder gods.

Moving on to our next bit. Of Feather Witch's divinations, I believe this one is the most interesting. I will skip through most of the various texts in-between, and also skip the first few things said, because they deal with MoI and MT's itself, and not the future (Note that I skip the part dealing with Rake soon to cross blades with his own vengeance...):

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Thus! The Holds, save one. The Empty Hold has become...very crowded indeed. 'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge! The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror. The Mistresses dance with thwarted desire. The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace. The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward. The Saviours face one another, and in broken reflection too stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all. Contestants to the Empty Throne. Blood and madness...

[MT pg. 293]

'Ware the brothers would seem to be a warning to Rake, but more importantly, I believe that all the references to blood are talking of the Paran family. The Watchers are, of course, the Nameless Ones; the Mistresses Poliel and Soliel. These are the easy calls.

Wanderers and Walkers are a bit harder; the Wanderers may be T'lan Imass, the evidence for which I will provide in the next quote. The Walkers, on the other hand, can be easily associated with the 14th, though of course there very little evidence supporting this...but it seems that they are stuck in a "Growing torrent that pulls them ever onward." And then we have the Saviors; Fid said that Tavore would be tempered by her impending meeting with her brother, and I do believe this may be a reference to this. The Betrayers should be the Tiste Andii with Tavore, but I find it curious that Feather Witch, even as a Edur slave, would refer to them as the Betrayers.

Quote

T'lan Imass.
T'lan Imass...
What did he care about some ancient nemesis?
Because the dust of over four thousand of them was beneath their feet at this moment....The dust can rise, Udinaas. Can take shape. Warriors of bone and withered flesh, with swords of stone. Where are these ones from? Which warleader sent them here? They do not answer our questions. They never do. There are no bonecasters among them. They are, like us, lost.

[MT pg 574-575]

So here we have an interesting little revelation from Wither. "They never do" seems to be an indication that he has tried talking to them before. In the next few pages, Udinaas and Feather Witch journey into Starvald Demelain, where they meet Rud Ellale and speak to the stranded ghosts of the T'lan Imass Their bonecaster sealed the rents in Starvald Demelain, which is interesting.(I believe Abyss was the one who postulated that these rents were portals between the different holdings of the human First Empire...) It has been mentioned before that these are the Bentract T'lan Imass, and the popular opinion is that these Imass will not even be able to reform until a bonecaster commands them again. Whether or not this is true, I believe these are the Wanderers.

----------------------

Now, none of this is too earth-shattering, aside from the suggestion that Vengeance's pommel contains the soul of Scabandari Bloodeye. But I think interpreting Feather Witch's various sermons give a good indication of what is to happen, at least in the immediate future of the Malazan novels. A page back in the divination that I quote you can find references to Crone and the Shaman who "wails the wedt of the dead in fields of bones, yet believes none of the patterns he fashions from those scattered remains." Which may or may not be a reference to Fiddler, but it is the next line which is more important: "Tracker walks his steps assured and purposeful, to belie that he wanders lost." (All this from pg 290-291.) Which is probably Traveller.

Anyway, the point is this: MT, like HoC before it, may not be anybody's favorite novel in the Malazan universe, but it certainly contains some of the most tantalizing tidbits. There remain many mysteries to be solved: who will inherit the names that Mael's Guardian gave to Brys? I understand why Mael was unwilling to repel the Edur invasion of Letheras, but why would the Errant push Mael's Guardian into killing Rhulad? These are just a few of the things that I expect will be answered come Reaper's Gale....and I think it will be interesting to see just who will pass through Hood's Gate....and whether or not their deaths were foretold in one way or another.

[Binder of Demons]

That sure is a lot to think about.

My head hurts!

I do like the suggestion of the finnest being the pommel of a sword. The rest i'll have to think on, and read the quotes again, but this should spark a good conversation or two.

[Ivan the terrible]

Excellent...best analysis i have seen on this forum bar none!

[blewin]

uh, I never quite figured out what all those names means.. wanderers, walkers, savers and so forth. Detailed analysis indeed. Glad you shared it.

haha, a pommel, if that's true, SE sure is jerking our noses again.

[Dragnipurake]

what exactly is the empty hold? from the book and some of the posts here, it seems to be KE? if so, why would soldiers from the bonehunters, paran's family, imass etc be the members of the hold (walkers, wanderers, etc). wasnt seren pedac called a walker or something by the shades/ghosts?

[Rat Mentor]

I would agree with the Brothers being the Rake/Ruin/Darist or the three Beddict brothers as they are, at that point, shaping the Edur/Letherii conflict.

The Watchers could be the Blue Rose Tiste Andii?

The Mistreses is refered to as Seren Pedac and a another. (when she and Buruk leave the Edur lands, Seren places her hands upon the mountain side and overhears the Blue Rose Andii talking).

I'm not sure as to the Wanderes and Walkers but in ref to MT and its story, I think its the Traped souls in the Azath Tower and the Jheck.

The Saviours are Silchas Ruin & Rake, the Betrayers Blood Eye and the Edur.

That's my thoughts on the matter....

[Binder of Demons]

Ok, so i've been thinking about your (very well reasoned) analysis, and have a few questions too.

Does the quote in MT pg 188 by the Tiste Andii Scholars of Black Coral necessarily have to describe Scabby's meeting with Killy and Mael all those years ago? There are very few dates given for these quotes before chapters, and some quotes we have seen in other books definitely occur in the future.
It could mean that Scabby has another unfortunate demise awaiting him, posssibly involving the sword vengence, or just payback pure and simple from Silchas.
This could be another case of SE playing with the vague notion of prophesy, and how after the fact things all appear so clear.


As for the reference to the brothers, if Rake is already accounted for as the knight in the dragon hold, would she also refer to him as one of the brothers when talking about the the empty hold?

Could the brothers be the Sengar brothers. Trull, Fear and Rhulad are all still involved, and will have important roles to play.

The Beddict family could also be implied, if you accept the Brys may still have a role. Tehol clearly has a part in whats to come. Then the following line of Feather Witch's divination
"BLOOD weaves a trap that will trap the entire world", could easily be refering to Tehols financial manipulations.

The Mistresses doesn't have to refer to Poliel and Soliel either. It could be a reference to Menadore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu if they "are plotting together and against each other to lay claim to the finnest which contains the soul of Father Shadow" to quote from Pats review of Reapers Gale. In this case "thwarted desire" would imply that none get what they bargain for and someone else lays claim to the finnest.

Or for a different take on the Mistresses, you could have a reference to someone like Lostara Yil, who is a shadow dancer (of sorts isn't she??), or Seren Padec if we're going with the desire being the more lustful variety. Even Apsalar could fit in here, with her desire to leave her assassins life behind her.
You may well be right with Pol and Sol?

I don't know, there are so many possibilities, and that's one of the reasons I love this series. Since we know that SE WANTS to defy the fantasy conventions in this series, then, I expect loads of twists, and red herrings, mixed in with the straight up narrative.


There is also a debate on the meaning of feather witches reading here http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=4855

[Imperial Historian]

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Tracker walks his steps assured and purposeful, to belie that he wanders lost.

Surely that could be just as likely be Icarium, not traveller, I love the ambiguity of the Feather Witch readings, I'm sure we all have our favourite theories, mine are pretty much outlined in the thread linked...

Personally I'm inclined to believe that in some ways the prophecies are multi-layered, reflecting the themes of family conflict SE seems to be weaving into the tale, the Parans, the Beddicts, the Sengars, the Brother's Dark and their extended families have increasingly become the central focus of the tale, and you can look at the prophecy as referring to many of these families, though personally I'm more inclined to believe that it refers mainly to events in MT and possibly RG...

Quote

who will inherit the names that Mael's Guardian gave to Brys?

Didn't someone pass on these names to Tehol at some point? Can't remember and since I don't have the books with me iI can't check but I believe the guardian made Tehol to take up the names against buggs wishes round the point where he was healed.

Quote

why would the Errant push Mael's Guardian into killing Rhulad?

Presumably so that a more permanent solution could be reached further down the line, though saying that we make the assumption that the Errant is one the other side to Rhulad, increasingly a conflict between Elder and younger seems on the cards, and who knows what side the elder will end up on in their bid to regain power...

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Binder of Demons;171806 said:

Ok, so i've been thinking about your (very well reasoned) analysis, and have a few questions too.

Does the quote in MT pg 188 by the Tiste Andii Scholars of Black Coral necessarily have to describe Scabby's meeting with Killy and Mael all those years ago? There are very few dates given for these quotes before chapters, and some quotes we have seen in other books definitely occur in the future.
It could mean that Scabby has another unfortunate demise awaiting him, posssibly involving the sword vengence, or just payback pure and simple from Silchas.
This could be another case of SE playing with the vague notion of prophesy, and how after the fact things all appear so clear.


As for the reference to the brothers, if Rake is already accounted for as the knight in the dragon hold, would she also refer to him as one of the brothers when talking about the the empty hold?

Could the brothers be the Sengar brothers. Trull, Fear and Rhulad are all still involved, and will have important roles to play.

The Beddict family could also be implied, if you accept the Brys may still have a role. Tehol clearly has a part in whats to come. Then the following line of Feather Witch's divination
"BLOOD weaves a trap that will trap the entire world", could easily be refering to Tehols financial manipulations.

The Mistresses doesn't have to refer to Poliel and Soliel either. It could be a reference to Menadore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu if they "are plotting together and against each other to lay claim to the finnest which contains the soul of Father Shadow" to quote from Pats review of Reapers Gale. In this case "thwarted desire" would imply that none get what they bargain for and someone else lays claim to the finnest.

Or for a different take on the Mistresses, you could have a reference to someone like Lostara Yil, who is a shadow dancer (of sorts isn't she??), or Seren Padec if we're going with the desire being the more lustful variety. Even Apsalar could fit in here, with her desire to leave her assassins life behind her.
You may well be right with Pol and Sol?

I don't know, there are so many possibilities, and that's one of the reasons I love this series. Since we know that SE WANTS to defy the fantasy conventions in this series, then, I expect loads of twists, and red herrings, mixed in with the straight up narrative.


There is also a debate on the meaning of feather witches reading here http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=4855

Whew! That's a lot to sort through. I now remember the thread you referenced, and I believe that you and the others who are applying the Empty Hold part of the prophecy to the events on Lether are probably right. Nonetheless, there are definitely portions of Feather Witch's sermons dealing with the future of characters on other continents. Also, though I know that Erikson is often intentionally vague so as not to give anything away, I'd like to believe that the quote on pg. 188 is a direct reference to Bloodeye's physical death.

We could, of course, all be wrong, and that is why I too love this series.

[Brys Beddict]

To further support belief in the Wanderer's being T'lan Imass, it says "The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace." [MT, pg. 293]. The T'lan Imass have broken down the Jaghut, who are users of ice. Not too sure about the deathly embrace though.

[Illuyankas]

Cold? Deathly? Hood, maybe.

[Bottle]

"Brys" said:

Not too sure about the deathly embrace though.

The ritual of Tellan prehaps?

[buddhacat]

Brys Beddict;171843 said:

To further support belief in the Wanderer's being T'lan Imass, it says "The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace." [MT, pg. 293]. The T'lan Imass have broken down the Jaghut, who are users of ice. Not too sure about the deathly embrace though.

Could be a much more mundane explanation: The wanderers (Sengar brothers) broke through the ice (one of their camping places showed ice with animals frozen, etc.; they also went to the frozen tundra to get the sword,) and cold darkness came with its deathly embrace (time started flowing again (so to speak), with Hood's dominion over the dead now beginning to encompass the Lether continent.)

As for the mistresses, I agree with the poster above: It's more likely to be the 3 mares Dawn, Dusk, and Dapple.

[Brys Beddict]

@ Bottle:
That's what I was thinking too, but Tellan is the elder warren of fire, so it didn't seem to make much sense. Unless this is cold embrace is them finally being released to Hood. Only thing with that is that Itkovian sent their souls to the Realm of the Beast in order to renew it, didn't he?

[Rat Mentor]

Regarding the mistresses...

Hardback copy page 403..

'-when he who commands cannot be assailed. Cannot be defeated.'
'And now he feeds on our rage. Our anguish.'
Of the three, one shall return. Our Salvation-'
'Fool. from each death power burgeons anew. Victory is impossible.'
'There is no place for us. We but serve. We but bleed out terror and the annihilation begins-'
'Ours as well.'
'Yes, ours as well.'
'Do you think she will come again? Does anyone think she will come again? She will, I am certain of it. With her bright sword. She is the rising sun and the rising sun ever comes, sending us scurrying, cutting us too pieces with that sharp, deadly light-'
'-annihilation well serves us. Make of us dead shards. To bring an end to this-'
'Someones is with us'
'Who?'
'A mortal is here with us. Two Mistresses to the same Hold. She is one, and she is here. She is here now and she listens to our words.'
'Steal her mind!'
'Take her soul!'
'Let us out!'

Seren reeled away from the back wall....

Kind of puts to bed who one of the Mistresses is...

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think Feather Witch's readings concern only the events of MT on Lether, or at least those you mention in the original post do. Not the actions of the Bonehunters and other characters not appearing in MT.

(I don't know about the "Scabby Finnest as sword pommel" thing, we just don't know about that. Though I would wonder why Gothos was carrying such a thing around in the first place, he's not the type who's into swords.)

Most of this has been covered in the thread linked above, about the divinations, but I'd like to go through it again.

Where is Dassem Ultor?;171727 said:

'Ware the brothers would seem to be a warning to Rake, but more importantly, I believe that all the references to blood are talking of the Paran family. The Watchers are, of course, the Nameless Ones; the Mistresses Poliel and Soliel. These are the easy calls.

The Brothers: the Sengars & the Beddicts.

The Watchers: The Andii wraiths, the Errant, Mael. All observers of events on Lether. The Nameless Ones - what have they got to do with anything on Lether?

The Mistresses: Not sure, the Queen of Lether? Seren? Mayen? Uruth Sengar?

Quote

Wanderers and Walkers are a bit harder; the Wanderers may be T'lan Imass, the evidence for which I will provide in the next quote. The Walkers, on the other hand, can be easily associated with the 14th, though of course there very little evidence supporting this...but it seems that they are stuck in a "Growing torrent that pulls them ever onward." And then we have the Saviors; Fid said that Tavore would be tempered by her impending meeting with her brother, and I do believe this may be a reference to this. The Betrayers should be the Tiste Andii with Tavore, but I find it curious that Feather Witch, even as a Edur slave, would refer to them as the Betrayers.

The Walkers: Binadas, Trull. Who were notorious for wandering alone. Seren is also a Walker of a kind.

The Saviors: Iron Bars, Trull, Silchas Ruin.

The Betrayers: The Tiste Edur under Scabandari, perhaps the leadership of Lether (from the perspective of the slaves of the Edur).

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[MT pg 574-575]

So here we have an interesting little revelation from Wither. "They never do" seems to be an indication that he has tried talking to them before. In the next few pages, Udinaas and Feather Witch journey into Starvald Demelain, where they meet Rud Ellale and speak to the stranded ghosts of the T'lan Imass Their bonecaster sealed the rents in Starvald Demelain, which is interesting.(I believe Abyss was the one who postulated that these rents were portals between the different holdings of the human First Empire...) It has been mentioned before that these are the Bentract T'lan Imass, and the popular opinion is that these Imass will not even be able to reform until a bonecaster commands them again. Whether or not this is true, I believe these are the Wanderers.

That would be a bit strange, since those T'lan Imass are explicitly not doing any wandering - or other movement - whatsoever.

Quote

But I think interpreting Feather Witch's various sermons give a good indication of what is to happen, at least in the immediate future of the Malazan novels.

I think FW's readings (or at least those you analyse above, some clearly refer to non-Lether characters like Rake or to nobody obvious, such as the Shaman) concern only the events of MT. You can explain each reference with an MT event or character.

Quote

A page back in the divination that I quote you can find references to Crone and the Shaman who "wails the wedt of the dead in fields of bones, yet believes none of the patterns he fashions from those scattered remains." Which may or may not be a reference to Fiddler, but it is the next line which is more important: "Tracker walks his steps assured and purposeful, to belie that he wanders lost." (All this from pg 290-291.) Which is probably Traveller.

Not sure what that's got to do with Fiddler. He doesn't do much pattern fashioning with broken bones that I can remember. I think Tracker is Hull Beddict, who wanders lost.

Quote

Anyway, the point is this: MT, like HoC before it, may not be anybody's favorite novel in the Malazan universe, but it certainly contains some of the most tantalizing tidbits. There remain many mysteries to be solved: who will inherit the names that Mael's Guardian gave to Brys? I understand why Mael was unwilling to repel the Edur invasion of Letheras, but why would the Errant push Mael's Guardian into killing Rhulad? These are just a few of the things that I expect will be answered come Reaper's Gale....and I think it will be interesting to see just who will pass through Hood's Gate....and whether or not their deaths were foretold in one way or another.

We were told that Tehol has the names now, from Brys. The Errant pushed the Guardian to kill Rhulad? I didn't think that was the case.

[paladin]

What if the wanderers were the Stormriders? They seem to be pushing from whatever hellish place they're from into more activity now.

[Jheral]

Dolorous Menhir;171877 said:

The Errant pushed the Guardian to kill Rhulad? I didn't think that was the case.

No, I don't think he did. What I do think, however, is that he pushed the king of Lether to commit suicide, causing Brys's death in the process.

Edit: The Guardian said something like: 'I am ... pushed?' to the Errant just before he killed Rhuald, but that was about the errant saying that the names would be lost soon (probably to encourage him to find someone else to hold the names).

[Locke Reaper]

Couldn't the wanderers be the k'chain shot tails? this is more from the bonehunters, where paran's jughut companion, forget her name, was the mistress of phomtose and killed after she went to repair her ritual that was destroyed. This is just some speculation as SE likes to weave different events in to diffrent books throught out the series.

[Whelp]

@Dolorous Menhir:

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The Nameless Ones - what have they got to do with anything on Lether?

Imho, they are at least aware of what is going on - did they not send their "secret weapon" to topple Rhulad?

Quote

The Walkers: Binadas, Trull. Who were notorious for wandering alone. Seren is also a Walker of a kind.

Edgewalker could also qualify - if I recall correctly, FW once said that the Walker walks by edges unseen...and that sounds too much like Edgewalker to me.