[Dolorous Menhir]

Whelp;171983 said:

@Dolorous Menhir:

Imho, they are at least aware of what is going on - did they not send their "secret weapon" to topple Rhulad?

Edgewalker could also qualify - if I recall correctly, FW once said that the Walker walks by edges unseen...and that sounds too much like Edgewalker to me.

Hmm, now that I look at that quote, I meant to say Binadas & Hull for the Walkers, not Trull. Whoops.

[Lister of Smeg]

The Nameless Ones also had a hand in the creation of Kettle, so they are - or at least were - present on Lether.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ah, good point.

[Abyss]

Some excellent points above...

Tracker - echoing Dol'Men, i always thought this was a ref to Hull Beddict.

The Two Mistresses - Seren, as noted. While she was a bit player, since her blessing had an interesting effect on the Nerek, i've wondered whether the other may have been Mayen.

The Empty Hold - i took this to be Meanas/human Shadow.


Another point to keep in mind tho', is that a prophecy can have multiple meanings, and as with the Deck, different players can fill different (and multiple) roles at different times. By example, 'the wanderers have broken through the ice' can as easily mean the Tlan Imass trashing Omtose Phellack, as Trull's force obtaining the sword from the spar, as QB and Paran putting the Seer and his sister into Burn's warren at the end of MoI.

- Abyss, aka Abyss, aka Abyss...

[polishgenius]

In terms of the pattern fashioning with broken bones, that could be Tehol, if you think figuratively - the wealth of the Letherii empire being the bones. Which would fit with Tracker being Hull. I haven't got the passage to hand, is there anything that could apply to Brys around then?
Just throwing it out there.

The Empty Hold seemed a lot more central and important then Meanas is, to me.

[Abyss]

polishgenius;172013 said:

...The Empty Hold seemed a lot more central and important then Meanas is, to me.

As i see it, Meanas is the key to healing KE, mending the split between Light and Dark, returning the Edur home, resolving who/what Kettle is, and possibly the whole Deragoth/Hounds/Dessimbelackis/First Empire mess.

Plus, fromm the wiki, Udinaas' thoughts on the Empty Hold (MT, p.31, UK Trade):

'The Hold that had existed, unseen, at the very beginning. The Empty Hold - heart of Letherii worship - that was at the very centre of the vast spiral of realms.'

- keep in mind that Letherii worship actually dates back to the First Empire, which might (maybe) have self-destructed due to using a chunk of KE in the Ritual that went all shapeshifter crazy.
And we know a whole series of human warrens, Thyr, Rashan, Meanas... flow from KE, hence your spiral.

Plus Meanas stood empty for ages before ST/Cot jumped in and took over.

Any of the comments Udi and FW make re The Empty Hold are pretty open to interpretation, but imnsho, lean pretty strongly towards Meanas.

- Abyss, the Shadow knows.

[Dark Mac]

Meanas is a Warren, and The Empty Hold is...a Hold. I don't think they can be the same.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Much as I hate to see my logic being thrashed, I think it's safe to concede that much of what I originally said was just plain wrong. Or Feather Witch's prophecies can be applied to events of more than one continent.

Regardless, I do agree that Meanas will have a large role in things to come.

[pat5150]

Hmmm,

You have no idea how much I'd like to join this conversation... Sadly, I can't.

Patrick

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

pat5150;172109 said:

Hmmm,

You have no idea how much I'd like to join this conversation... Sadly, I can't.

Patrick

I can only imagine. I guess we'll just have to wait a few months...

[Abyss]

pat5150;172109 said:

Hmmm,

You have no idea how much I'd like to join this conversation... Sadly, I can't.

Patrick

- Abyss, is being graphic.

[Coco with marshmallows]

sort of drifting here, but it does have to do with midnight tides:

anyone else hoping a certain jhistal priest of Mael is going to recieve a visit from Bugg;) ?

[Mael]

Quote

Thus! The Holds, save one. The Empty Hold has become...very crowded indeed. 'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge! The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror. The Mistresses dance with thwarted desire. The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace. The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward. The Saviours face one another, and in broken reflection too stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all. Contestants to the Empty Throne. Blood and madness...

IMO the empty hold denotes factions

Brothers: Trull, Fear, Rulad and Binadas (may or may not be dead, even if dead his death has reprocussions)

Watchers: Nameless Ones

Mistresses: Seran Pedac & other

Wanderers: Barghast/Fenn/Theloman...The ones who recently arrived on Letheras in thier Canoes

Walkers: T'lan Imass

Saviors: Ganoes and Tavore (and subsequently the 14th and Onearms host).

Betrayers: Ganoes and Tavore. In Ganoes's eyes Tavore betrayed her family and in Tavore's eyes she had to in order to make up for Ganoes "betraying" the empire. When they face one another they see the betrayel.

Now, I do not believe that FWs readings are localized to Lether. After all...the majority of the placeholders in the hold of dragons aren't on Lether

Also,

Unaligned:
shapefinder = Tayschrenn ("shapefinder has become a chimera in truth..." from FWs casting and Silverfox also referred to him as a Chimera in MoI. This is the only 2 times this word has come up.)

[Brys Beddict]

Quote

'The Hand of the Watcher,' Binadas said, 'who waited until the war was done before striding forward to unleash his power.'

[MT pg. 301]

Pretty good reference to the Watcher being Gothos. Afterall, Gothos was the one who iced Lether and prevented the Edur from fully conquering it. Course, it could be possible that the Watcher has changed, and likely did, though I imagine Gothos still sees everything, cursed as he is with a perpetual awareness of just about everything.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's a good point, and it also suggests Mael & the Errant, who did essentially nothing during the war between the Edur & Lether until it was effectively over (they didn't lift a finger until the Edur were already taking the capital).

[Set'alahd Crool]

Brys Beddict;172284 said:

[MT pg. 301]

Pretty good reference to the Watcher being Gothos. Afterall, Gothos was the one who iced Lether and prevented the Edur from fully conquering it. Course, it could be possible that the Watcher has changed, and likely did, though I imagine Gothos still sees everything, cursed as he is with a perpetual awareness of just about everything.

And let us not forget that Gothos - or at least some Jaghut with a personal interest in the omtose-frozen north - appears every so often to inspect the condition of the ice. At least, that's what I got from an exchange between Trull and Ahlrada Ahn.


edit
Found the quote. This is Trull and Ahlrada discussing the writing on Icarium's clock-bridge.

"'You have seen such writing before.'
'Not in....stone. In ice. It doesn't matter.'
'Ice?'
'I once lived and hunted with the Den-Ratha, on the north coast. North and east, deep into the ice seas. Before the unification. There was a wall, covered in such writing, a berg that blocked our way. Twenty man-hieghts high, half a league wide. But it sank into the sea - it was gone the next season.'
.....
.....'What did your Den-Ratha comrades say about it?'
'The Tusked Man wrote them, they said.' He shrugged again. 'It is nothing. A myth.'
'A man with tusks?'
'He has been . . . seen. Over generations, sightingsevery now and then. Skin of green or grey. Tusks white as whalebone. Always to the north, standing on snow or ice. Leader, this is not the time.'

[polishgenius]

Set said:

At least, that's what I got from an exchange between Trull and Alrada Ahn.

From what I recall of that exchange, that implied Icarium to me.
I could be wrong though. I'd need to find it again to see what they actually say.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Does Icarium actually have the prominent tusks of a Jaghut though? Green/grey skin, definitely, but I'm not sure about the tusks. And it presumably isn't Gothos, since he's been in an Azath for a long long time and doesn't leave.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Dolorous Menhir;172295 said:

Does Icarium actually have the prominent tusks of a Jaghut though? Green/grey skin, definitely, but I'm not sure about the tusks. And it presumably isn't Gothos, since he's been in an Azath for a long long time and doesn't leave.

I think it is Gothos, checking his ritual. Perhaps the azath grants him the same boon Ruin gets from MD, and he's only there in spirit.
Perhaps Ruin is wrong, and HE gets it from the azath too.
Or pehaps Gothos can do whatever the **** he wants.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Brys Beddict;172284 said:

[MT pg. 301]

Pretty good reference to the Watcher being Gothos. Afterall, Gothos was the one who iced Lether and prevented the Edur from fully conquering it. Course, it could be possible that the Watcher has changed, and likely did, though I imagine Gothos still sees everything, cursed as he is with a perpetual awareness of just about everything.

One of the Watchers may be Gothos. I think the important thing to remember (and perhaps I should have stated this more confidently before) is the heretofore seen plurality; Udinaas mentions that FW has never before pluralized; these duplicates may be the strongest indication that Erikson is, in fact, talking about events on other continents.