[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the plurals indicate the doubt over the future - each role is occupied by a pair, one on the Edur side, one on the Lether side.

If you remember the prophecy the Letherii followed, that a new empire would be created during the course of MT, well there were two possible bases for that Empire - the Letherii & the Edur.

Turns out it was the Edur, but that wasn't certain, and so each position in the reading was held by one person from each group.

I'm still not seeing any real need to go to totally non-Lether related characters like the Parans here. Rake is different, since he's got a worldwide presence and relevance to the Edur. But Ganoes Paran (even as Master of the Deck)? Or Tavore? I just don't think FW was talking about them, it's a stretch. There's no need to go into the Paran family history to look for betrayal when it's right there in MT with the Sengars and the Beddicts.

[Onrack the breakable]

How do you come up with Traveler being "Tracker"?

The main person who has actually showed significant tracking skill in the books so far is Karsa. He also fits the description of his steps being purposeful to belie that he wanders lost.

The mistrisses, in the same book MT the Tiste Ande ghosts refer to Seren Pedac as being one of the two mistress of the same hold. Tenuous but at least some basis in context.

I think your points about the sword are reasonable tho. But why do some people see Dasem ULtor everywhere? Frankly, he only does one paragraph appearances so far in the MBOtFs. Hes just another boring tragedy.

And I dont think the Parans have anything at all to do with the featherwhick prophecies.

The one thing I find hilarious is in BoneHunters, Corabb said that the "bad trip" dreams of eating toads didn't bother him much, except for all the feathers. I think if Corabb ever meets Featherwitch, he'll gut her like a fish. He doesn't like women much and I can't see him tolerating a vile witch like her. He was fantasizing about chopping Dunsparrow into four pieces so fast the parts would all hit the ground at the same time and she didn't seem all that bad a person especially compared to a piece of work like Featherwitch.

[Onrack the breakable]

Dolorous Menhir;172295 said:

Does Icarium actually have the prominent tusks of a Jaghut though? Green/grey skin, definitely, but I'm not sure about the tusks. And it presumably isn't Gothos, since he's been in an Azath for a long long time and doesn't leave.

Yesh. Tusks very prominent like you'd expect from a jag. Somewhat smaller than Mappos, but Trell supposedly have even larger tusks than Jaghuts. I think it was in Deadhouse Gates where we first see Mappo and Icarium watching a distant Aptorian or else Mappo eating a purple cactus. I forget exactly but Icarium definitely is described as having Jaghut tusks.

Why focus on the singlur people that are likely too busy doing a million other things (or none at all)? I think the Jaghut is Cynnigyg who only pretends to have a twisted spine so Karsa Orlong takes pity and doesn't chop him in half for being such a smartarse.

[polishgenius]

I'd say the grey/green skin reference fits Iccy more because when we first meet him in DG he's described as something like his 'grey skin had darkened to olive green as if the sun had drawn out his father's blood' - unless there's elsewhere where Jaghut are described as having grey skin?
And later on he's described as having visible but not really prominent tusks ('bulging his lip').
Also since he's regularly called a man, whereas I don't think I've seen a full Jaghut called 'man', and the phrase in the passage is Tusked Man, not Weird Green Monster Thing With Massive Tusks.
I also think that there's a reason Erikson dropped it in while they were on Icarium's needlessly complicated clock...

That said, the 'standing on snow' reference is a strong call for Gothos or another Jaghut checking the ritual, so I'm not entirely decided.

[Set'alahd Crool]

polishgenius;172429 said:

I'd say the grey/green skin reference fits Iccy more because when we first meet him in DG he's described as something like his 'grey skin had darkened to olive green as if the sun had drawn out his father's blood' - unless there's elsewhere where Jaghut are described as having grey skin?

IIRC, and in this at least I do, Icarium's skin was changing from grey to green because the die he had used to disguise himself as a Tano Spiritwalker was fading/running.

I still think it's Gothos. He's not an actual prisoner of the azath - that was Icarium's misapprehension - but resides therein by choice.

[Dark Mac]

polishgenius;172429 said:

That said, the 'standing on snow' reference is a strong call for Gothos or another Jaghut checking the ritual, so I'm not entirely decided.

And Icarium's supposed to have a companion most of the time, while the Jaghut on Lether seems to be alone.

[spiralx]

Set said:

IIRC, and in this at least I do, Icarium's skin was changing from grey to green because the die he had used to disguise himself as a Tano Spiritwalker was fading/running.

I still think it's Gothos. He's not an actual prisoner of the azath - that was Icarium's misapprehension - but resides therein by choice.

Yes, I've just finished rereading DG and the grey skin was a disguise, Mappo says that the green is showing again. From the description Icarium looks fairly Jhagut-like in most ways.

I agree that it's likely Gothos checking on his ritual.

[Dolorous Menhir]

My understanding was that Gothos entered the Azath of his own free will - but once he did so he was not free to come and go as he pleased. Perhaps that is wrong, but I thought he was imprisoned like any other guest of the Azath and only differed in that he chose it.

It would make the most sense if the Den-Ratha's Jaghut was Gothos though. Is it possible that they remember his visits that occurred before his imprisonment? We know that Gothos has been in the Azath at least 100,000 years - since we have an instance of Icarium Rage taking place that long ago - but although that seems like a long period of time we have to remember the extremely long Edur lifespan.

And the Ritual did fail in the end, which suggests that Gothos was not keeping tabs on it any more - since he was in the Azath.

[Onrack the breakable]

spiralx;172441 said:

Yes, I've just finished rereading DG and the grey skin was a disguise, Mappo says that the green is showing again. From the description Icarium looks fairly Jhagut-like in most ways.

I agree that it's likely Gothos checking on his ritual.

Actually it was his hair dye that was running. In ch1 second paragraph of DG it says, "..his gray skin had darkened into olive green, as if his father's blood had answered this wastland's ancient call. HIs long, braided black hair dripped black sweat onto the bleached rock."

Another faulty memory.

He was wearing robes and such so the hairdie was sort of pointless and pathetic disguise as Mappo notes, "my blind grandmother wouldn't have swallowed your disguise...next time.. try belonging to a tribe where everyone's seven foot tall.."

[HegemonWiggin]

Though there aren't any important implications that I can see, the description of the Watchers struck me as similar to the giants within the warren/flesh of Burn that Quick travels to at the end of MoI; they certainly had "faces of horror", and were motionless, helpless... though that's not much fun since it doesn't lead anywhere the novels have not already travelled... a thought.

[Wither]

My own wild speculations: (I think the plurality muddies the waters as we approach the seventh closure: I think it creates reverbreations (for lack of a better word) that have ancient historical roles echoing through modern characters.)

Empty Hold (DEATH - but with significant echoes of Shadow)

• Empty Throne Empty (hey -- this is easy) The real question, though, is for how long. I suspect that someone is already trying on the seat to see whether his balls rest comfortably.
  
  Echoes: Throne of the Empire, sought by so many.
  
  Contestants to the Empty Throne, Blood and Madness (K'rul and the Chained God)
  The Betrayer stands in the shadow of the Empty Throne. That is why it is empty
  
  
  
• Wanderer Very little to go on, here: In the older, singular representation: Andarist, though I also considered Tool/Dassem (First Sword/First Sword reborn)
  
  But my really Crazy theory is Caladan Brood
  
  Echoes: the Andii Wraiths, who are in effect working for both sides of the conflict. The Crimson guard/Iron Bars.
  
  Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams
  The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace.
  She watched him working, wondering how often he had done this. How many glades like this one, how many mornings the first to rise among snoring soldiers. So far from anything resembling home. In a way, she understood him in that regard. There were two manifestations in the Empty Hold that spoke to that nature. Walker and Wanderer, the distinction between them a subtle one of motivation.
  
  
  
• Mistress Burn
  
  Echoes: Seren Pedac/Mayen.
  
  Wanderer Knight, and to the Mistress who waited still, alone in her bed of dreams
  The Mistresses dance with thwarted desire
  A mortal is here with us. Two Mistresses to the same Hold. She is one, and she is here. She is here now and she listens to our words
  Mistress of the Hold. Mistresses. There are two, and they think I am one of those two. A lie, a mistake. Which Hold?
  
  
  
• Watcher Gothos
  
  Echoes: the Ceda / Hannan Mosag
  
  To the Watcher, who witnessed all
  The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror.
  ?The Hold of Ice,? Trull said. ?Such as the Lether? describe in their faith.?
  ?The Hand of the Watcher,? Binadas said, ?who waited until the war was done before striding forward to unleash his power.?
  
  
  
• Walker Again, not much to go on. My WAG: Edgewalker (what's in a name, anyway.)
  
  Echoes: Brys Beddict / Fear Sengar
  
  the Walker, who patrolled borders not even he could see
  The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward
  Walker and Wanderer, the distinction between them a subtle one of motivation.
  
  
  
• Saviour Silchas Ruin. But in moments of madness I think: Icarium - carrying the sword that holds Scabandari's soul. (gift from Dad, don't you know. And what better weapon to complete the shattering of Kurald Emurlahn while simultaneously driving the poor boy insane with rage.)
  
  Echoes: Tehol / Trull
  
  To the Saviour, whose outstretched hand was never grasped.
  ?Of the three, one shall return. Our salvation??
  And look, Saviour and Betrayer, they have coalesced. They are one and the same. How is this possible?
  
  
  
• Betrayer Scabandari Bloodeye
  
  Echoes: Tehol / Trull, Hull / Udinas
  
  the Betrayer, whose loving embrace destroyed all it touched
  Night belonged to the Betrayer. Who sought to murder Father Shadow at their very moment of triumph, and who very nearly succeeded
  The ghost of darkness. The Betrayer
  The Saviours?face one another, and both are doomed, and in broken reflection so stand the Betrayers
  And Scabandari Bloodeye did not? Oh, I know the tale now. All of it. The seas whisper old truths, Rhulad Sengar. Revered Father Shadow, oh, such an absurd conceit. Murderer, knife-wielder, betrayer?
  The Betrayer stands in the shadow of the Empty Throne. That is why it is empty.
  

[Wither]

Came across an interesting passage when looking for something in GotM.

Quote

(when Raest meets K'rul.)
'You remind me of Hood. Is the Death Wanderer still alive?'

I actually like this better than any of my own speculations. Hood was the Wanderer in the original Hold of Death, but he climbed the ladder and is now Lord of the Warren of Death. This also explains why Silchas is familiar with Hood's, um . . . intimate anatomy in MT, since he was imprisoned in teh Azath long before the Holds gave way to Houses.

Quote

?The Lord of Death, and yes, he has balls.?

I even like the playoff then with Hood/Edgewalker: a subtle distinction of motivation. That ties it: Hood is now my merry Wanderer of the night, er . . . Empty Hold.

[The Archivist]

Let's look at FW's prophecy line by line and look for possible outside of the box ideas (these are just ideas to kick around and play with):

Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!

Could this be the poisoning of Krul's Blood and the warrens. I seems to have trapped the warrens in its web and kept the entire world stuck in terms of travel.

The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror.

Could this be the Houses of the Azath? The Dead Houses ... seen with horror?


The Mistresses dance with thwarted desire.

Could this be the KCCM matrons?

The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deathly embrace.

Perhaps, the Jade Statues floating in space?


The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward.

Perhaps, the Ascended Bridge Burners.

Contestants to the Empty Throne. Blood and madness...

Would think that this is a direct reference to Krul and the CG.

The Saviours face one another, and in broken reflection too stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all.

Perhaps, the Saviours are the Tanno Spiritwalkers and the original Nameless Ones? While the Betrayers are the current Nameless Ones? Consider the quotes below.

Anyway, these are meant for general musings not products of deep pondering or anything. Hopefully, just some food for odd thoughts.

Quotes:

'The Tanno cult claims a direct descent from the cult of the Nameless Ones. The Spiritwalkers say their powers, of song and the like, arose from the original patterns that the Nameless Ones fashioned in their rituals – those patterns supposedly crisscross this entire subcontinent, and their power remains to this day.' (HoC, UK Trade, p.396)


Trell shoulder-woman: 'Once, but no more...Cast out, cast down. In the time of the First Empire which was not, in truth, the first – for the T’lan Imass claimed that title long before. They were the left hand, another sect the right hand – both guiding, meant to be clasped. Instead, those who would come to be Unnamed, in their journeys into mysteries—’
She chopped with one hand, a gesture Mappo had not seen before among the tribe’s elders. A gesture, he realized with a start, of a Jhag...
‘Mysteries of another led them astray. They bowed to a new master. That is all there is to say.’
(DG, UK Trade, p.466)

[Onos]

That last quote is a good one. Do we know what the other 'cult' referred to in the above quote is?
Also I assume the Nameless ones are the ones that were led astray.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Archivist;174997 said:

Trell shoulder-woman: 'Once, but no more...Cast out, cast down. In the time of the First Empire which was not, in truth, the first ? for the T?lan Imass claimed that title long before. They were the left hand, another sect the right hand ? both guiding, meant to be clasped. Instead, those who would come to be Unnamed, in their journeys into mysteries??
She chopped with one hand, a gesture Mappo had not seen before among the tribe?s elders. A gesture, he realized with a start, of a Jhag...
?Mysteries of another led them astray. They bowed to a new master. That is all there is to say.?
(DG, UK Trade, p.466)

Ooh, Archivist, nice work on that quote, it's something I've always wondered about. You should start a new thread just with that quote, because it's something that merits discussion.

I've got no idea what the "right hand" to the Nameless Idiots' "left" is, I'm curious to know what others think.

[Abyss]

Wondering whether the "new master" was the Errant... the whole balance thing would seem to flwo to his being a Master of the Deck/Holds until his worship derailed him into something else, much like the NOs went off their original path, apparently.

- Abyss, reads maps goodly.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Aye, I would find a discussion on the new masters of the nameless one's quite interesting.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;175685 said:

Aye, I would find a discussion on the new masters of the nameless one's quite interesting.

Um, I thought the Azath was the NO's new master. It's their old master we don't know.