[Jimmy]

Smiles reckons he's the eldest of them all? Any thoughts?

[Aptorian]

Of the gods? Yeah he's probably pretty old, him being an elder god

Then again, Togg's POV in MoI suggests that Elder Gods, allthough probably Mother Darks first children, are in fact not even close to being the eldest creatures on Wu.

I dont think all the EGs are elemental forces, they might be an evolved sentience serving as an avatar for a elemental force, if so Mael is most likely among these.

Being the eldest god might refer to our own understanding of evolution. All sentient life on earth, is believed to stem from the sea. Thus if there should be anything to be a god of, Mael was probably busy very early on.

[Trotts]

I think "elder" is a pretty relative term. Differant people will view differant gods as being elder.

However, seeing as how Mael's realm is quiet elemental and raw, I would wager that he falls in with the K'rul elder bunch. Thats just my guess though.

[paladin]

the term elder god seems to represent any god still around thats older than the warrens/humanity

[Set'alahd Crool]

Smiles, it seems, grew up in a place where Mael is accorded primacy. There is no reason to think she's privy to secret knowledge of the origins of the Elder Gods.

It's likely that if there's an eldest it's K'rull. I think it was Quick Ben in MoI who says something like "perhaps the oldest of them all" refering to K'rull.

Togg's belief that K'rull is a mere child compared to himself probably comes from the Elder Gods being kept from the realm by the KC. Togg might not know or care that the EGs existed for a long time before they turned up in his world.

[Aptorian]

paladin;169758 said:

the term elder god seems to represent any god still around thats older than the warrens/humanity

Not exactly, Elder Gods seem to be a generation of gods that struggled, succeded and vanished within their own era.

That's why its called the time of the elder gods. They refer to each other as brothers and sisters, they have been described as Mother Darks children, don't remember if they were first or if they came after the Eleint.

Along with these gods there must also have been tribal gods, spiritgods, ascendants, Deragoth, etc. The KCCM seem to have kept the EG's off Wu, wether the EG's came before the KCCM and were banished is of course hard to say. But no matter what, Togg, a warren using wolf creature was around long before the EGs came around.

[Jimmy]

Aptorian;169750 said:

Of the gods? Yeah he's probably pretty old, him being an elder god

Then again, Togg's POV in MoI suggests that Elder Gods, allthough probably Mother Darks first children, are in fact not even close to being the eldest creatures on Wu.

I dont think all the EGs are elemental forces, they might be an evolved sentience serving as an avatar for a elemental force, if so Mael is most likely among these.

Being the eldest god might refer to our own understanding of evolution. All sentient life on earth, is believed to stem from the sea. Thus if there should be anything to be a god of, Mael was probably busy very early on.

Sorry, but that was pretty long winded

[Aptorian]

Jimmy;169767 said:

Sorry, but that was pretty long winded

:confused:

You asked a pretty ignorant question and I tried to contribute with some thoughts on the EGs nature and age... I don't know what you're searching for, how about making a question in detail next time then?

[BridgeBurner]

Set said:

Smiles, it seems, grew up in a place where Mael is accorded primacy. There is no reason to think she's privy to secret knowledge of the origins of the Elder Gods.

That's how I read it. Didn't she have a powerdream about her twin sister being sacrificed, while they where crawling over the Gods' nectar under Y'Ghatan?

All people there were confronted by their main deity/deities. There was even one who despaired on having such a big Pantheon...

BB - worshiping the Goddess of Love...

(sorry Abyss, couldn't resist )

[Jimmy]

Aptorian;169770 said:

:confused:

You asked a pretty ignorant question and I tried to contribute with some thoughts on the EGs nature and age... I don't know what you're searching for, how about making a question in detail next time then?

lol, sorry, but you could've just said stuff you. I wouldn't have minded at all.

[Trotts]

Quote

That's how I read it. Didn't she have a powerdream about her twin sister being sacrificed, while they where crawling over the Gods' nectar under Y'Ghatan?

If I remember correctly, Smiles dreams its happening to her, but it actually happened to her sister, and thats why she left her home.


And Jimmy, I think the gist of what people ar saying is that there are a lot of gods, worshipped by a lot of people at various times, so singling one out as "the eldest" is tough to do. Its mostly just speculation and the circumstances/environment of an individoul's upbringing that makes them consider certain gods higher than others.

At the same time, we've heard a lot of compelling information about K'rul that shows he is infact fairly elder, but that doesn't mean he is the eldest.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

As an interesting point, its well known to the readers that the warrens and magic are K'ruls flesh and blood. I dont remember the statement about the Elder Gods being Mother Dark's children, and if this is the case, then it would suggest that @least the elder warrens aren't a part of K'rul. Wich makes a hell of a lot of sense now that i think about it, as something separates the Elder Warrens from all the others and thats why they alone aren't affected by ottataral. Maybe it only affects those that are a part of K'rul.

Sorry, i realise that this has digressed from the point of this post, but i had the epiphany of realisation while writing this, so i just kept tying

[Gem Windcaster]

Mael has to be quite old. But, the way I see it, it doesn't really matter which of the elder Gods that is the oldest.
As for Mael, I think he has the most interesting personality among the elder Gods. Though it seems most of the elder Gods are rather free spirited about actually being worshipped, or the way they are being worshipped (K'rul, nightchill etc.), Mael is almost extreme in that area. I find myself wishing good things for him. And I don't care a whit for the other elder Gods.
Maybe because Mael seems more vulnerable. Maybe that is sign leading to which of the EG that are the eldest?

[Dark Mac]

Lucifer said:

As an interesting point, its well known to the readers that the warrens and magic are K'ruls flesh and blood. I dont remember the statement about the Elder Gods being Mother Dark's children, and if this is the case, then it would suggest that @least the elder warrens aren't a part of K'rul. Wich makes a hell of a lot of sense now that i think about it, as something separates the Elder Warrens from all the others and thats why they alone aren't affected by ottataral. Maybe it only affects those that are a part of K'rul.

Sorry, i realise that this has digressed from the point of this post, but i had the epiphany of realisation while writing this, so i just kept tying

MoI, on UK Trade, p.236, said:

Visions flooded her (Lady Envy's) mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening – pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth – a savage imposition of order, the heart from which blood flowed in even, steady streams. Twin chambers to that heart – Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark – and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of...Dragons. And the blood – the power – now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens...in striding through the warrens, we travel through your very flesh. That, when we draw upon the power of the warrens, we draw your very blood? Who knows?

As it doesn't get any more Elder than KG or SD, it seems that Elder Warrens are also part of K'rul...at least in the form they can be used rather than inhabited.

[Mael]

I approve of this threads title

/stamp

[spiralx]

So it seems...

Darkness
Chaos
Elder Gods
Light
K'rul imposing order

[Lucifer's Heaven]

Fair enuf, i stand corrected on the difference between the Elder Warrens and all the others. It made sense at the time, and i now wonder what does separate them. Anyway thats for another thread

I agree with Windcaster, tho in that Meal is tre awsome. i dont mind K'rul, but Meal is truly awsome (Bugg and tehol being possibly my most enjoyed storyline). If however he is one of the oldest, and K'rul and MD were around before there was even light let alone a world, then he must've originally been unaligned and later founded the sea as his aspect. for i doubt that oceans wouldv been around prior the coming of light.

altho maybe not, as KG is not just empty space is it? does it not contain matter and just stuff? anyone any idea? as this would help work out the order that things came into being, and perhaps therefore the order of the gods...

[Aptorian]

Quote

Originally Posted by MoI, UK Trade, p.236
Visions flooded her (Lady Envy's) mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening – pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth – a savage imposition of order, the heart from which blood flowed in even, steady streams. Twin chambers to that heart – Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark – and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of...Dragons. And the blood – the power – now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens...in striding through the warrens, we travel through your very flesh. That, when we draw upon the power of the warrens, we draw your very blood? Who knows?

spiralx;169989 said:

So it seems...

Darkness
Chaos
Elder Gods
Light
K'rul imposing order

Believeing Envy's vision is the whole story, it certainly looks plausible.

But what is it we're seeing in that vision?

Is it the creation of Wu? or is it the imposition of order on Wu?

To me it sounds more like how the elemental forces came into this existence and were shaped by K'rul.

A hole is pricked through darkness, maybe by the coming of light. Really meaning the big bang occurs, Chaos is created through entropy or entropy arrives as chaos seeps into this new dimension through the hole light made. Out of Chaos come the elemental forces that like Chaos are constants.

K'rul was already there then (Is he then Father Light?) and he gave shape to the elementals by impossing an order.

It still doesn't say anything about Wu's creation. In theory Wu could have been there before the shaping of the warrens.

Arh, this stuff does my head in.

[spiralx]

I think that we can reasonably assume Darkness and Chaos came first. I suspect that the addition of Chaos is what birthed the Elder Gods - each "freezing out" an elemental aspect of the plurality of Chaos. Maybe it makes no sense to speculate which came first, Chaos or the Elder Gods, maybe one implies the other.

K'rul's imposition of a kind of order doesn't imply he was there first, merely that he was able to stabilise some aspect of Chaos - it's still out there between the warrens after all.

What's missing is who the hell Father Light is. If he's anything; maybe he's just a concept for the idea of something different that Mother Dark imagined into being. That makes more sense to me at this point than it being anyone we've seen or heard of...

[spiralx]

Aptorian;170075 said:

It still doesn't say anything about Wu's creation. In theory Wu could have been there before the shaping of the warrens.

Arh, this stuff does my head in.

Wu the world or Wu the universe?