[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Set said:

It's likely that if there's an eldest it's K'rull. I think it was Quick Ben in MoI who says something like "perhaps the oldest of them all" refering to K'rull.

That was Kilava. Also, we have to remember that MoI and the events taking place in MT are roughly parallel, and so her line about an elder god awakening (..."perhaps the eldest of them all..."), could in fact be referencing Mael. Interesting. I had always thought previously to this that K'rul was the eldest god, but now that I am sitting here writing this, I suddenly wonder....I hope we do get to see Tool, Kilava, and TocAnaster again.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;170939 said:

That was Kilava.

I sit corrected.

I still think it's K'rull, not Mael, to whom she's refering. Not that she's necessarily right. Many of SE's characters have conflicting and flawed takes on history. Even first hand accounts can be refreshingly and realistically unreliable.

[spiralx]

Just re-reading GotM and there's a bit in there where Tool (I think) and Lorn are watching Tattersail's death and start talking about Starveld Demelain and Tool says that "there was one who could use it, but he was long dead". This seems to be a clear reference to K'rul as everyone believes him to be long dead, and indeed K'rul certainly has a huge part to play in the rebirth of Tattersail.

The implication being K'rul's main warren is Starveld Demelain, the eldest warren. Which would put him as being the first of the EG in my opinion...

[Locke Reaper]

Wouldn't that be Taim, mother of all dragons?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Locke Reaper;171974 said:

Wouldn't that be Taim, mother of all dragons?

I don't have the book handy to check - but spiralx does say "he," which makes Tiam unlikely.

[spiralx]

I'm 99% sure it was "he".

[spiralx]

Actually come to think of it that description could equally apply to Draconus, as he's been "dead" for a long time, and has the whole draconic thing going on which could imply Starveld Demelain.

But I still think it implies K'rul, as he was actually present at the soul shifting of Tattersail, and I doubt Starveld Demelain came from Kruppe, the Mhybe or Pran Chol.

[Onrack the breakable]

I think Mael is actually the Crippled God after journeys to the Abyss with the 14th, Shurq, and other friends and puts himself back together then goes back to the very beginning of time to wait for aeons for all his friends to show up again just so he can say, "thanks buddys". Wait, I'm starting to cry. Maybe thats not such a good idea...

By the way the reference from Tool was not just referreing to Stavald Demelain but to the half dozen other warrens being used as well. At the time I'm fairly sure it referred to K'rul. But Mael was referred as being the eldest Mecros god -an entire different people with different beliefs. It sounds like most of the elder gods if not all were pretty much contemporaries, even if until the comming of light none were very obvious they still existed as elemental forces and the first children of mother dark.

Its interesting that Mael doesn't seem to have much to do with other elder gods but then we find Kilimandaros who was similarly obsure and perhaps Grizzen Farl and dozens more. Originally it was stated there were only three remaining the eldest K'rul, Draconus, and Sister of Cold Nights (Nightchill). But it seems there are possibly alot more remaining but they are either sleeping or don't want to be bothered.

Mael does seem to share alot of similarities of affinities with the Crippled God tho so maybe my original idea wasn't too far off the mark...

[spiralx]

There were several warrens but I'm sure they were talking about SD because Tool seemed surprised to see it and Lorn had never heard of it before so he explained that it was the first warren to her.

[Lonehunter]

I was sure Kruppes dream world was Starvald Demelain. Also I don't recall K'rul being anything to do with Tattersails soul shift(didn't he only become active again when an altar of his is bloodied in MOI?)
Tiam is clearly a user of SD but I think more closely involved than that word suggests, in a similar way to each warren having an aspected Eleint.
I'm not sure how many times you can read these books before no longer having an original or different take on things.

[spiralx]

I think Kruppe's dream world is just that, a dream world - we've seen plenty of examples of such things existing in the books when power is involved. K'rul mentions at one point in GOTM that he is currently existing only in "a mortal's dreams".

Perhaps Kruppe's dream world reflects SD, but I doubt it... we've not seen anyone other than dragons, Soletaken dragons or Elder Gods who can weild it. And from Kruppe's comments the first time we see it it seems as though it's been around for a while before his first encounter with K'rul. It's possible though, maybe K'rul has been setting things in motion for a lot longer than anyone has realised... there are hints.

Actually... don't we see SD in HoC? I seem to remember that and it not looking like Kruppe's dream world... not got that far in my re-read yet

K'rul was definitely involved in the birth of Silverfox as the one who orchestrated the various forces involved. And the birth of Silverfox occurred in the warren of the Hold of Beasts, the old Imass warren IIRC.

[James Hetfield]

I may be way off the subject here, but do we know what warren Kruppe uses? If not, K'rul seems to be behind him somewhat, and maybe the key to his power.
Could K'rul have made a personal warren for Kruppe? Or tapped into some ancient forgotten warren or hold?
Just a thought.

[Kurt Montandon]

James Hetfield;173031 said:

I may be way off the subject here, but do we know what warren Kruppe uses? If not, K'rul seems to be behind him somewhat, and maybe the key to his power.

I'm guessing Mockra - seems like something a petty thief and illusionist would use. Or perhaps Thyr, which I believe is partially light aspected, not just fire.

Kruppe doesn't strike me as even modestly powerful magic wise, just skilled.

And K'rul is not involved - Kruppe used magic well before his partnership with K'rul. Keep in mind, for example, when Sorry followed him through the marketplace in GotM.

[Kurt Montandon]

spiralx;172915 said:

Actually... don't we see SD in HoC? I seem to remember that and it not looking like Kruppe's dream world... not got that far in my re-read yet

K'rul was definitely involved in the birth of Silverfox as the one who orchestrated the various forces involved. And the birth of Silverfox occurred in the warren of the Hold of Beasts, the old Imass warren IIRC.

In HoC, we saw Osric's hideaway pocket warren, which was more a memory of the real world that anything else. No Starvald Demelain.

And I'm not sure if Silverfox was born in the Hold of Beasts, or the memory of Tellan. Or perhaps Kruppe's dreamworld. Hell, I suspect it was a mix of the former two and the real world, and all three were under the influence of Tool being nearby.

[spiralx]

I have the book handy for once

Quote

'Your souls were forged in the Warren of Tellann, yet not in the distant past - the past in which Pran Chole lived - not at first, at any rate. Summoner, the unveiled warren of which I speak belonged to the First Sword, Onos T'oolan. Now clanless, he walks alone, and that solitude has twisted his power of Tellann-'

So my mistake (my rereading hadn't got that far is my excuse lol) - it was actually Tellann.

[Aptorian]

Interesting that Tools area of effect thing is mentioned again.

I always thought it was just a GotM'ism, since we haven't heard of that magic deadening power after GotM.

[Onrack the breakable]

Aptorian;173145 said:

Interesting that Tools area of effect thing is mentioned again.

I always thought it was just a GotM'ism, since we haven't heard of that magic deadening power after GotM.

Yeah. I always thought it was typical of all T'lan Imass but maybe a bit more powerful for Tool him being the first sword and all. Even though it isn't specifically mentioned that I recall, in Bonehunters the T'lan Imass with Fid & Co (Legana Breed was it?) does seem almost unstoppable against mages. But nothing like Tool whose presence alone forced 'Sail out of her warren over a very large area of effect, and basically fried her to a crisp when she drew fully on her warren. It may vary depending on the T'lan Imass because Legana Breed shows nothing of that sort of awesome area of effect power. But maybe he had the power but didn't use it because he didn't feel it was necessary against mere mortals.

Its odd, like Ghost Hands has terrifying power (throws Karsa Orlong around like he was a kitten) one book then in the next he gets chopped into tiny pieces by broken down T'lan Imass. Any one of which Karsa could've (and did for one of em) easily chop in half. Chaotic fluctuations in powerlevels, are so prevalent it must be necessary for the story in some way perhaps more than mere GOTMisms an indication of the fabric of reality being warped by the Chained God.

[Onrack the breakable]

kmmontandon;173036 said:

In HoC, we saw Osric's hideaway pocket warren, which was more a memory of the real world that anything else. No Starvald Demelain.

And I'm not sure if Silverfox was born in the Hold of Beasts, or the memory of Tellan. Or perhaps Kruppe's dreamworld. Hell, I suspect it was a mix of the former two and the real world, and all three were under the influence of Tool being nearby.

I initially thought Kruppes dreamworld was just a dreamworld not tied to any hold or warren, that doesn't mean it wasn't inadvertently close to a specific elder warren where K'rul happened to be snoozing.

We've now seen Starvald Demelain in MT or at least an area that adjoins SD. When Featherwitch and Udinas journeyed there I thought the Bentract Tlan Imass said something that the place they are "belongs to the Hold of Starvald Demelain" not that it actually "is the Hold of Starvald Demelain". Something about it being an outflow, so perhaps it was actually 90% generic dreamworld overlapping 10% of an entrance/exit of Starvald Demelain. We didn't see any Starvald Demelain creatures there for example so I would think the place itself wasn't technically SD.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

If I remember correctly, you've all mixed up the scene where Silverfox is "born" (when the soulshifting out of Nightchills body occurs in Kruppe's dreamworld) and the event that killed Tattersail and Bellurdan. The time Tool is shocked to see the appearance of Starvald Demelain is when the sorcerous conflagration kills Tatt and Bell, and he mentions that something was also born and fled.

That is a bit before K'rul and Kruppe get involved. Remember that K'rul only found out that it was out there, and used K'ruppe's dreamworld and the Tellan Warren to do the soulshifting. Neither of them actually had anything to do with the initial conflagration.

The only thing I can think of is that SD was a warren either Tattersail (doubtful) could wield, or perhaps Bellurdan, as we know nothing of his source of power, nor what warrens the TTT had access to (other than a much later mention of them being able to kind of create their own). Also, it could have something to do with the fact that The Sister of Cold Nights was in the body bag. Being an EG, she may well have had access to SD, and if some of her power was left over... Tattersail's spell of preservation may even have been what trapped some of that power.

And to Tool, it is said a few times that "you've now idea what his title as First Sword really means" and the fact is neither do we. So I agree, it may be a First Sword only power, or maybe all T'lan Imass posses it, and his is just ridiculously more powerful.

Also, at least according to the earlier mention vision, SD and KG are "as twin chambers of a beating heart", so one gets the impression that each is as old as the other. And that Chaos is just as, if not, older, as it seems to be what is where the warrens aren't. It's like the space between planets. Or that's the impression I get. It is unfashioned power. It may even be the shaping and taming of Chaos that is how warrens are created.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

Plus we know Kruppe has, at the very least, an immense amount of skill with whatever it is he uses. He's, also, either very powerful, or is now backed by K'rul, as he does turn away the power of Brood's hammer and anger without breaking a sweat (except of course the one that he's purpetually mopping up ). And to me he seemed very calm and confident that he could.