[Set'alahd Crool]

Monoch Ochem;168024 said:

But this gift from MD...why assume it was given after he was imprisoned? Could it not be something he already had? Some attribute that maybe Rake also possesses as a first-child of MD?

I got the impression that each time Ruin 'wandered' was a gift from MD. She allowed him the gift of witnessing events on seperate occasions, each occasion being a boon.

[Aptorian]

Indeed, if the wording is "gift of mother dark", it's probably just some andii/Galain ability.

Like being able to see in the dark or something.

[Monoch Ochem]

Exactly...unless we're suggesting that MD paid him a visit while in the Azath. I'm not partial to that theory, I must confess.

[Dragnipurake]

exact words: "mother dark's reluctant gift...."
probably something that he got after his imprisonment in the azath.
having more draconean blood doesnt necessarily mean more power. Kilmandaros killed 6 dragons (edit: but, see Aptorian's post below), and was not tired to go after scabandari.

[Aptorian]

Dragnipurake;168134 said:

exact words: "mother dark's reluctant gift...."
probably something that he got after his imprisonment in the azath.
having more draconean blood doesnt necessarily mean more power. Kilmandaros killed 6 dragons, and was not tired to go after scabandari.

Whoah there, are we sure she killed them? For all we know the 6 could have been the Royal line of the Edur Scabby-Dabby-Doo killed.

[Dragnipurake]

were the tiste edur royal line draconean soletaken?

[Aptorian]

Why not, if Scabby got a wholed of some draconean blood and wasnt even a first born of the Edur. Why not the Edur royal line.

We still dont know what Scabby did to make KE shatter but it could well be that his killing of the royal line and the spill of their blood, if they indeed were the dragons we see, was what destroyed the realm.

It's a bit of stretch but I like it better than the dragons just being a bunch of feral ones.

[Dragnipurake]

since the blood of those dragons is aspected (sinking into their own realms/warrens) it is unlikely they are feral, assuming feral dragons are the unaspected ones. by the same token, since they are not aspected to shadow, it is likely they are not the edur royal line, even if these were draconean soletaken.

regardless, if some relatively weaker entity like scabandari (weaker compared to the likes of rake, ruin or osric) is able to kill several dragons, it just goes to show that draconean blood is not the only measure of power. rake is the only archamage of the tiste andii, but none of the relevant people probably know of silchas ruin's existence. but still, it is possible the 'darkness' is greater than tiam's blood.

[Paran]

Aptorian;167990 said:

Uhm yeah he's the champion because somebody stabbed his brother and threw him in a big fat Azath, leaving him the last surviving (known) Andii ascendant.

No doubt when Ruin gets his stuff together he will also become a Champion of the Andii again.

No, Rake is THE Champion - as in THE Knight of High House Dark, Mother Dark's CHOSEN Champion. And I'm pretty sure this was so BEFORE the Andii turned on Mother Dark.

[Aptorian]

Paran;168414 said:

No, Rake is THE Champion - as in THE Knight of High House Dark, Mother Dark's CHOSEN Champion. And I'm pretty sure this was so BEFORE the Andii turned on Mother Dark.

Oh, okay, I thought you ment champion in the sense of hero, protector, leader.

But Rake surely wasn't "Knight of Darkness" in the days before their Exodus. Seeing as the position of Knight has only existed for a few hundred thousand years. Knight is a position in the Houses.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;168418 said:

Oh, okay, I thought you ment champion in the sense of hero, protector, leader.

But Rake surely wasn't "Knight of Darkness" in the days before their Exodus. Seeing as the position of Knight has only existed for a few hundred thousand years. Knight is a position in the Houses.

Was it not a position in the Holds also, in MT?

If I remember correctly Rake was Knight of both the Dark & Dragon Holds. We can comfortably say those roles predate the Exodus of the Tiste Andii.

[Monoch Ochem]

I think Apt is right. Before the Houses there were Holds...yet that existed on Wu. Not necessarily in the Realm of Darkness. So Rake being the Champion likely came AFTER they turned away from MD and the Andii first entered Wu.

I think I read somewhere that the sundering of KE was caused by more than one event or factor; that the spilling of the royal Edur blood was one.

I think Rake is AN archmage rather than THE archmage. The same could likely be said of Silchas. Hopefully, we get to find out soon.

[tjc52]

I reckon that you're all putting too much emphasis on Rake being called an "Archmage" once in GotM. We know that Tayshrenn came pretty close to taking him down, Korlat herself said so. We also know that hes not completely out of the power range of people like Caladan Brood. I'll agree that he's one of the most powerful characters so far, but I dont think his being an "Archmage" is a measure of his power, merely that hes the foremost mage amongst the Tiste Andii that the empire has encountered or heard of, and hence takes the title Archmage to distinguish him form other, somewhat lesser Tiste Andii high Mages.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I agree with tjc, "archmage" has been used only in GotM - a book which contained several genre conventions not carried into the later books (Tattersail's magic book of Thyr anyone?).

I don't think there's any great significance to Archmage as a title.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Dolorous Menhir;168455 said:

Was it not a position in the Holds also, in MT?

If I remember correctly Rake was Knight of both the Dark & Dragon Holds. We can comfortably say those roles predate the Exodus of the Tiste Andii.

Aye, Rake was the Knight in MT as well. For all the glamor that's been attributed to the mysterious power of Silchas Ruin, I'm pretty sure Rake has the measure of his brother.

[tiam]

Monoch Ochem;168470 said:

I think Apt is right. Before the Houses there were Holds...yet that existed on Wu. Not necessarily in the Realm of Darkness. So Rake being the Champion likely came AFTER they turned away from MD and the Andii first entered Wu.

I think I read somewhere that the sundering of KE was caused by more than one event or factor; that the spilling of the royal Edur blood was one.

I think Rake is AN archmage rather than THE archmage. The same could likely be said of Silchas. Hopefully, we get to find out soon.

If you beleive that the title came after the exodus then why would he be MD chosen champion? Surely hed be in disfavour for leaving MD cos of the light thing

[Aptorian]

tjc52;168500 said:

I reckon that you're all putting too much emphasis on Rake being called an "Archmage" once in GotM. We know that Tayshrenn came pretty close to taking him down, Korlat herself said so. We also know that hes not completely out of the power range of people like Caladan Brood. I'll agree that he's one of the most powerful characters so far, but I dont think his being an "Archmage" is a measure of his power, merely that hes the foremost mage amongst the Tiste Andii that the empire has encountered or heard of, and hence takes the title Archmage to distinguish him form other, somewhat lesser Tiste Andii high Mages.

Whoah there.

There's a pretty big difference between Tay and Brood.

I'd like to see this quote by korlat but from what we saw in GotM, it didnt seem like Rake would have had problems dispatching the last remaining Mage Kadre of the Malazan Empire. He wasn't focusing his blasts, merely throwing waves indescriminantly, trying to make the attack to costly for the Malazan army. Tay was on his knees from that forece, doing all he could just to survive and he'd been planning for that battle. No matter if other actions were taking place, if Rake had been pressed to choose between defeat or killing them I don't think the army let alone Pale would have been left standing.

Brood is in a class of his own, in his arms are the power of a god. Crone notes how he split a mountain in the Lordaeron Plateau in his younger days. In MoI he creates a small mountain with a swing of his hammer.

[Aptorian]

tiam;168531 said:

If you beleive that the title came after the exodus then why would he be MD chosen champion? Surely hed be in disfavour for leaving MD cos of the light thing

I'm not certain here but I think it's said that Rake turned his back on MD. He didn't leave in disfavor, he was the favorite son, the first, I think he might have been the leader of the first Andii to come to Wu. The war in KG and the Exodus Ruin was in charge of was after this happened. Possibly it was Rakes leaving in the first place that started the civilwar.

The question is if MD sits in any place of power or is even aware any longer. She fled in to the deepest, oldest part of KG to avoid the KCCM Death Spell. I think all the Andii are on their own now.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Aptorian;168534 said:

Whoah there.

There's a pretty big difference between Tay and Brood.

I'd like to see this quote by korlat but from what we saw in GotM, it didnt seem like Rake would have had problems dispatching the last remaining Mage Kadre of the Malazan Empire. He wasn't focusing his blasts, merely throwing waves indescriminantly, trying to make the attack to costly for the Malazan army. Tay was on his knees from that forece, doing all he could just to survive and he'd been planning for that battle. No matter if other actions were taking place, if Rake had been pressed to choose between defeat or killing them I don't think the army let alone Pale would have been left standing.

Brood is in a class of his own, in his arms are the power of a god. Crone notes how he split a mountain in the Lordaeron Plateau in his younger days. In MoI he creates a small mountain with a swing of his hammer.

I can't remember the exact quote, but it was in MoI when Korlat's lying flat looking at Tays blast Coral's wall. She's astounded by the power he unveils and thinks to herself how shocking it is that her poor Lord had to face that alone. It seemed beyond Rake's power to her.
Combine that with the conversation between WJ and Dujek earlier in the book, where it's mentioned that Tays was confident he could've taken out Rake and Moon's Spawn if he wasn't trying to handle Nightchill(an Elder goddess, btw) at the same time.

Seems to me Tays is right up there for bad-assity.

[Monoch Ochem]

@ Tiam: my error there Tiam. Sorry, I meant 'Knight'.

@ Apt: but didn't Rake say he was busy trying to reduce the damage to Moons Spawn AND banish the demons that were being indiscriminately summoned (like the one that killed Nightchill...Kenryllah- a Tayschrenn speciality) AND attack Tayschrenn...I think that if there wasn't the Nightchill subplot going on, Tayschrenn would have had to withdraw...something else was playing itself out or else they'd have attacked Moons Spawn long ago.

It seems that Rake's attacks were indeed targetted as Tayschrenn was the one shunting them left and right, down the hillside where they slaughtered the troops down there. If Rake had veered, I don't think there'd have been any stopping him. The fact that he didn't is proof of him prioritizing Moons Spawn's defence. He even said that if Pale's wizards had kept to their part of the bargain, he'd have sorted out the Malazans