[flea]

Do any of you think SE is offering a critique of Christianity with the Crippled God's promise of reward after death?

[rlfcl]

short answer yes with an if, long answer no with a but.

even shorter answer, yes. it's pretty clear.

[Danforth]

I think the idea of a rewarding afterlife is not one exclusive to Christianity. And I think Erikson opposes writing about the world today in fantasy, he's said as much in interview.

[Tiste Simeon]

I don't think so... I can see that there might be slight parallels, but then I think each god in the Malaz world has a parallel with some belief system or other on earth. So I don't think SE is trying to compare the CG to Christianity, really...

[flea]

Danforth;155194 said:

And I think Erikson opposes writing about the world today in fantasy, he's said as much in interview.

But as an anthropologist he obviously knows quite a deal about belief systems and, more importantly, about the structure of such systems.

So while I agree he does not examine any religion in particular, he certainly examines religion in general.

I do find it interesting that none of the characters I consider "cool" are religious.



-flea, who believes in Dog.

[Danforth]

It is kind of hard writing about a pantheon of Gods without touching on religion and belief structures share common themes and repeat themselves through time so there maybe similarities but I don't feel SE is critiquing(sp?) any specific religion.

[Monoch Ochem]

Where does the CG promise life after death?

Besides, there are many characters in the series who defy death in their own ways... why would that offer be unique to the CG?

[Battalion]

flea;155166 said:

Do any of you think SE is offering a critique of Christianity with the Crippled God's promise of reward after death?

If this is so, Rhulad would be a fine Jesus. He is reborn, after all. Could the Lether Gold be a parody of Judus's Silver?:confused:

[polishgenius]

It's not a critique in the slightest. The Crippled God's thing of taking in the crippled is possibly a twisted mirror of the Christian ideal of helping those who need it, but certainly not an analogy of it.

[Estelindis]

I've sometimes felt that, through the Crippled God, SE may be criticising one of the most important ideas in Christianity: that one may be strongest when one is weakest.

The very idea of God becoming a human being who is directly accessible - who can be heard and seen and touched - was scandalous to those who saw God as only transcendent (rather than immanent). Even more so was the idea that God could be tortured and killed. Hence, in the early centuries of the Church, many doctrinal variations abounded, in which any weaknesses Christ appeared to have were said to have been mere illusions.

I usually doubt that SE wishes to put himself in the camp of these thinkers - but occasionally, when I see how often resolutions in the Malazan world come about purely through the exercise of a staggering level of power, I do wonder if his choice of a (largely) contemptible antagonist who is weak and crippled has some theological significance.

But then I remember how well he wrote Itkovian (there's a *real* paladin) in Memories of Ice - his ability to convey true goodness in this character is usually enough to clear my mind of doubt concerning his moral views on faith.

[sarlinspellweaver]

I'd never really seen it as a direct parallel of Christianity - but to take my English student's perspective, I don't think there's anything wrong with someone reading it that way if that's what they find. As George Bernard Shaw put it: "People get nothing out of books except what they bring to them". It's not a matter of working out if SE is on the right track, but more realising that how we read books reflects our own character.

[Bl1nder]

sarlinspellweaver;155729 said:

I'd never really seen it as a direct parallel of Christianity - but to take my English student's perspective, I don't think there's anything wrong with someone reading it that way if that's what they find. As George Bernard Shaw put it: "People get nothing out of books except what they bring to them". It's not a matter of working out if SE is on the right track, but more realising that how we read books reflects our own character.

Agree tottaly, I never saw any refference to Christianity in the whole Pantheon!
As someone said above, you cannot avoid touching some parts of our real world
religions when you have so many Gods and Goddesses

[Tiste Simeon]

Estelindis said:

I've sometimes felt that, through the Crippled God, SE may be criticising one of the most important ideas in Christianity: that one may be strongest when one is weakest.

I can see what you mean in that perspective, but again, it's not really a true parallel. Of course that's probably something for the DB.

[Shadow_God]

I think that it is possible - CG as Christianity's worst aspects taken to an extreme, just as pre-Edur Lether showcases capitalism's worst qualities. I think that SE is bothered by a) the idea of an afterlife as a cop-out for dealing with the real world and the concept that admitting to being flawed or weak is all you have to do, that you shouldn't then try to overcome that weakness. Taking refuge in weakness as an excuse to give up.

Both of those ideas have come up in Christianity repeatedly, but aren't necessarily inherent in or necessary outgrowths of it.

[flea]

Shadow_God;155824 said:

CG as Christianity's worst aspects taken to an extreme, just as pre-Edur Lether showcases capitalism's worst qualities. I think that SE is bothered by a) the idea of an afterlife as a cop-out for dealing with the real world and the concept that admitting to being flawed or weak is all you have to do, that you shouldn't then try to overcome that weakness. Taking refuge in weakness as an excuse to give up.

Great points.

I find it interesting the SE seems completely areligious, while populating his universe with actual gods. To a certain extent the only difference between gods and mortals seems to be access to power (I include eternal life as a form of power). Humans, like QB, can, in fact, play the power game and succeed. Other characters also acknowledge how dangerous humans can be to gods.

But.

Where things get foggy for me is when one considers what some characters refer to as the Elementals and other of the most ancient beings. There is some kind of structure to SE's universe, one which allows for "fate," but I really have a difficult time comprehending that structure--explanations and references to specific threads would be welcome here.

Totally off topic, but amusing to me:

In today's Los Angeles Times there is a story about the National Football League forcing churches to cancel big-screen bashes for the Super Bowl. "Churches routinely draw hundreds of fans to annual Super Bowl parties; some denominations openly use the events as tools for evangelism. The Christian magazine Sports Spectrum even markets a Super Bowl party kit for churches."

Lether meets Mallick Rel?

[Kallor]

does it matter? i could make an argument for a yes answer and upset a bunch of you or else do the same for a no answer and upset the rest ... all will be (relatively) clear eventually ...


y'all stop messin' with my rep ...

[flea]

Kallor;155897 said:

does it matter?

Hell no, but what else is there to do while waiting for the next book?

I need to get back to real life. :eek:

[Gimli's love child]

..........What? Why do you suggest Christianity? why not muslim or virtually any other religion known to man?

This seems to me like typical egocentric christian question, always on a quest to prove to others just how religious they are and providing an oppurtunity for you pontificate about your on beliefs! sorry but no thanks!

[sarlinspellweaver]

Gimli said:

..........What? Why do you suggest Christianity? why not muslim or virtually any other religion known to man?

This seems to me like typical egocentric christian question, always on a quest to prove to others just how religious they are and providing an oppurtunity for you pontificate about your on beliefs! sorry but no thanks!

Right then - does anyone think it is a parody of Zoroastrianism?

[Bl1nder]

Gimli said:

..........What? Why do you suggest Christianity? why not muslim or virtually any other religion known to man?

This seems to me like typical egocentric christian question, always on a quest to prove to others just how religious they are and providing an oppurtunity for you pontificate about your on beliefs! sorry but no thanks!

The answer would be this: Christianity is the most spread religion(atleast I think so). But I rather agree, no point in mixing religion in all of this