Malazan Empire: Is the "philosophy" of the Crippled God a take on Christianity? - Malazan Empire

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Is the "philosophy" of the Crippled God a take on Christianity?

#41 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 01:37 PM

flea;158168 said:

Too many comments in this thread represent an adolescent understanding of, and reaction to, religion.


With you there Flea. Can't believe some of the things I read here about this supposedly supremely arrogant Christian God. I wonder how many people have actually read the bible and understand the context from which these patchwork stories they deliver derive? But if SE had written a real parody of the Christian God, I'm pretty sure that deity would not be so ritually castigated.

I don't think SE's taking any swipes at any religion in particular. The whole CG thing to me seems like a lesson in selfishness and manipulation. If anything, it would more be analogous to the isolationist/individualistic notions sweeping agnosticism...that to think your actions only affect you and serve your own purpose could be a disastrous miscalculation (a la the wizards who brought down the CG).
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#42 User is offline   Estelindis 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 01:38 AM

Hmm, it would seem from the reputation system that operates on these boards (at which I have lurked for quite a long time without posting, largely because I haven't felt I have anything particularly insightful to contribute) that my question was interpreted as an attempt to hijack this thread. Far from it, though. I was just trying to figure out along which axis a similarity between the Crippled God and the Christian God might be observed. Accordingly...

Dark Mac;158006 said:

The Flood, assumably.

As the historicity of many events in Genesis (including the Flood) is doubted by a large portion of Scripture scholarship, this is possibly not a helpful example. However, if one looks at the idea of natural evil in general (e.g. floods, earthquakes, tornados, volcanic eruptions, etc) as being somehow due to God's inability/unwillingness to prevent them, we have a possible link - the themes of suffering and misfortune tend to be represented by the Crippled God quite a lot. Are there differences?

The arguments I've come across for a wholly good, omnipotent higher being permitting natural evil to occur have been quite persuasive - the best is probably the idea that, without constant physical laws (which can lead to some unpleasant side effects for us), we could not exist as we are. However, if one interprets this negatively, one could arrive at an idea of a cold, vengeful, aloof god, who permits people to suffer because it makes them stronger, and only values this resultant strength insofar as he can use it - this may be a partial image of the CG (given,for instance, his disregard of 'Siballe once she is too broken to be of use to him). Thus, I feel that, if the Crippled God is a take on Christianity, it's an overly negative or critical one.

If we're going to regard the CG as an exile from our world, personally I would have gone with a more Asian theme - not for religious reasons (I'm not an expert on oriental faiths), but because it seems appropriate flavour-wise in the light of the jade statues.
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#43 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 06:42 AM

For some reason it seems the super serious crowd from the discussion board (nerds :)) has themselves hijacked this thread. Adolescent my arse :)

I personally dont think that the CG is the christian god. But I think to a degree we havent seen described from any of the other gods, he does work with a lot of the things you would connect with the christian ideas. He's like an inverted christian god.
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#44 User is offline   Estelindis 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:42 AM

That's a good way of putting it. I don't think the CG is the Christian God (aagh, same acronym) either, but there are quite a few shared themes - even if, as you say, they are inverted. They may not seem inverted to everyone - but, like I said before, if one looks at someone like Itkovian, who might be seen as having some similarities to Christ in that he took on the suffering of others to save them, one sees something a bit closer to a real mirror (although I really used that example initially because I find that how an author writes goodness is a far better indicator of his/her ability to engage morality in a deep and interesting way than the manner in which s/he writes evil; in a certain sense, it's easier to sink down to a lower level in one's mind than it is to rise higher - as C. S. Lewis put it (I think!) a man can sympathise with a horse, but a horse can't sympathise with a mouse (as least, as far as we know)).

However, when all is said and done, I try to avoid reading characters/events/places/items from fantasy books as allegories for things in our world. It does both the imaginary and the real world a great injustice - as well as muddying the waters surrounding the literary genre of allegory proper (in which the author writes a work in which each of the major components is intended to stand for something else - it can often be quite effective when done consciously, but sometimes the result is too heavy-handed). The best one can do, I think, is to identify common concerns, which may filter through the fantasy world in a different way than they do in our world, while having the same origin.

Aside from the general difficulty of making direct allegories where none were intended, I think that it's even harder to draw parallels in the Malazan world, because we often don't know who the "good guys" are - and this kind of obvious clarity is usually helpful when forming allegory (which, although it can be quite subtle, does tend to lose out on shades of grey as a whole). There sure are a lot of "bad guys" in the Malazan world, as well as many neutral parties, people doing their duty, and people just trying to survive. But, overall, apart from a few exceptions, it's not only hard to say who's good, but it's difficult to know who the author wants you to think of as good. (I spent ages feeling vaguely guilty that I didn't like Tattersail when she was "obviously" supposed to be a heroine - she was on the back cover of the first book, after all! - until I accepted that I was allowed to dislike her if I wanted. Recently, though, I've started wondering if we're even "meant" to like her.) How does this relate to the Crippled God? Well, he's one of the obvious baddies, I suppose, which makes him an easier subject of forced allegory. However, it must be added that even his character (spiteful, cruel and malicious as it is) leaves a certain openness to sympathy, in that he was dragged from his home cosm, and appears to be in near-constant pain. Thus, it seems better to treat him as an entity in his own right, rather than forcing the parallels that may exist in some ways to fit in all ways.
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#45 User is offline   Bl1nder 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:11 PM

Agree with most in the above post, but what I dont agree with is this, why do you say the CG is obviously evil? I mean lets look at it in a different angle. Say before he died, Dunsparrow gets killed, and Whiskeyjack goes after her killer. If he kills him/her, everyone would think "well yes, the bastard deserved it, he/she killed his sister", in other words hes revenge would be justified. Why it should be different from the CG? He got dragged to this univeres, where hes crippled, broken, chained, hated,feared and so on. He only wants revenge for what was done to him, and if this happened to one of the "good" characters, we would be supporting the wanted vengeance, and still call that character good. So yea, my 2 cents
I have stolen princesses from sleeping barrow kings
I have burned the town of Trebon
I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life
I was expelled from the University at a younger age most people are allowed in
I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during the day
I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make minstrels cry
You may have heard of me....
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#46 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 03:34 PM

The bare similarities that may exist do not, in my humble view, justify a whole parody of the Christian God as vested in the CG. Being an anthropologist, the author no doubt derived many ideas from the various religions, cultures and societal practices he studied. We've seen it before...e.g. the name Diivers probably came from the biblical reference to "divers plagues" in the Old Testament. Bonecasters probably came from the tribal practice of devining the future by chanting over a handful of bones (or teeth/shells/beads sometimes) and then casting them in front of the seer... and there are other references to be found but no similarities so stark as to justify the assertion that SE's making a political statement. Even the Lether story being a political statement on US foreign policy was denied by SE. Yet see how closely some Letherii characteristics can be interpreted...

I mean, why not say that K'rul was some take on Jesus too, given the redeeming characterisation of his blood?
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#47 User is offline   Estelindis 

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 11:14 PM

Bl1nder;159337 said:

Agree with most in the above post, but what I dont agree with is this, why do you say the CG is obviously evil? I mean lets look at it in a different angle. Say before he died, Dunsparrow gets killed, and Whiskeyjack goes after her killer. If he kills him/her, everyone would think "well yes, the bastard deserved it, he/she killed his sister", in other words hes revenge would be justified. Why it should be different from the CG? He got dragged to this univeres, where hes crippled, broken, chained, hated,feared and so on. He only wants revenge for what was done to him, and if this happened to one of the "good" characters, we would be supporting the wanted vengeance, and still call that character good. So yea, my 2 cents

Hmm, not necessarily. I might call such a person fair, but I don't know if I'd call them good - although, given the circumstances, it might be a stretch to call them evil. Accordingly, as I did point out in my previous point, even the role and nature of the Crippled God (who has done/sanctioned some truly horrific things) is open to debate.

Oh, and good point about K'rul, Monoch Ochem. Once one is actively looking for parallels, they pop up all over the place (whether the author intended them or not - although I think, when readers are trying to find them everywhere, the author is unlikely to have intended many - or any? - of them).
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#48 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 07:03 AM

Bl1nder;159337 said:

Agree with most in the above post, but what I dont agree with is this, why do you say the CG is obviously evil? I mean lets look at it in a different angle. Say before he died, Dunsparrow gets killed, and Whiskeyjack goes after her killer. If he kills him/her, everyone would think "well yes, the bastard deserved it, he/she killed his sister", in other words hes revenge would be justified. Why it should be different from the CG? He got dragged to this univeres, where hes crippled, broken, chained, hated,feared and so on. He only wants revenge for what was done to him, and if this happened to one of the "good" characters, we would be supporting the wanted vengeance, and still call that character good. So yea, my 2 cents


Well, I'm one of those people that dont think of the Chained One as absolut evil. He's twisted, insane and bitter as hell, I understand what his main agenda is. He's either gonna be burned up along with the rest of the world when Burn wakes or he's going to destroy the entire world and in that way get his revenge on the world that saw him fall.

But he does do very cruel things that can't be explained by his plans. Take the artist with testicalcancer or what it is in MoI. As payment for making him a deck he removes the knotts but leaves the man crippled and having to crawl to Darujistan... then he laughs. I was entertained though :)
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#49 User is offline   Bl1nder 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 03:41 PM

Aptorian;159544 said:

Well, I'm one of those people that dont think of the Chained One as absolut evil. He's twisted, insane and bitter as hell, I understand what his main agenda is. He's either gonna be burned up along with the rest of the world when Burn wakes or he's going to destroy the entire world and in that way get his revenge on the world that saw him fall.

But he does do very cruel things that can't be explained by his plans. Take the artist with testicalcancer or what it is in MoI. As payment for making him a deck he removes the knotts but leaves the man crippled and having to crawl to Darujistan... then he laughs. I was entertained though :)


Aye, if he is evil and twisted and so on, he has some very good reasons to be
I have stolen princesses from sleeping barrow kings
I have burned the town of Trebon
I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life
I was expelled from the University at a younger age most people are allowed in
I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during the day
I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make minstrels cry
You may have heard of me....
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#50 User is offline   Onos 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:52 PM

Are there even any truly 'good' characters in the series? They all have their own agendas and many of our reactions to them are culturally based.

Would be interesting to have a book set from say Kallor's or the CGs perspective, where they are the 'heroes'. Kallor defeating barbarian empires, bringing civilization and technology to people, only to be 'cut' down at his prime. Perhaps some king of childhood issue, like abuse that impacted how he turned out or a lost love etc.
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#51 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:54 PM

Whatever the Chained One (good choice of terms Aptorian :) ) was before in his own realm, he's something different now. The pre-existing entity was destroyed in the fall and what remains is a distortion.

Those who brought him down can be said to have achieved their just rewards.. and you could philosophically extend this to all beings on that world consumed in their power struggles. I think the Chained One is the retributive result of greed and selfishness.
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#52 User is offline   sundaymonkey 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 06:43 PM

Quote

e.g. the name Diivers probably came from the biblical reference to "divers plagues" in the Old Testament.


Interesting, but I always took it that SE was making a play on words. The Divers were so called because they could veer their bodies into 'diverse' forms, while the Soletaken could only veer into a single form.
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#53 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:55 PM

That's what I thought too. I never gave the matter much thought, but I was reading a history book a while ago and in 18th Century English the word "diverse" was just written "divers". Then I realised how obvious the name actually was, it was pretty stupid not to work it out earlier.
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#54 User is offline   Rat Mentor 

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:19 PM

You know it took me until MoI to twig the soletaken names...

Feel bloody stupid not to catch on quicker...
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#55 User is offline   Tehol Beddict 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 06:08 PM

I agree, I think it IS a take on Christianity. Here's my thoughts:
1. There is a utopian world after death. You just have to suffer and repent to get there (same with us in the real world.)
2. The sufferers, prosecuted and what have you have an advantage over the others (same with the real world)
3. They have a completly contradictory, ridiculous and hypocritical Holy Book (again, like Chrisitanity)

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#56 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:42 PM

No. The Crippled God's "religion" is one that involves the scarred and broken, the maimed and... yeah, you get the point. Perhaps the salvation part is somewhat Christian, but it seems to be restricted to Felisin Fatter's band of worshippers and not in the CG's interests.
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