[caladanbrood]

Slumgullion Spitteler;270984 said:

Being religious doesn't preclude being scientific, but I think a lot people in the scientific community get upset when they see someone ignoring proven scientific fact in favor of unsubstantiated/improbable, religion-based explanations.

Which leads, I find, to the other annoying trait of assuming that someone with religious faith must be creationist. Very strange, all round.

[Gothos]

I'm yet to see an atheist creationist tho.
furthermore, does all of this starting without any interferance from God or whatever other idol you pray to, based on chance and circumstances, actually fit into your religion? really?

[caladanbrood]

Gothos;271082 said:

I'm yet to see an atheist creationist tho.

You think?:eek: I'm assuming you're making a sarcastic point here. Just because it requires a belief in god to be a creationist doesn't mean that a belief in god makes you a creationist, as you well know.

Personally, I believe that some sort of god-figure started the whole thing going (lets call it the big bang, for simplicities sake) and left it alone. They knew what would happen, set all the important universal constants so that life could occur (The odds of them all being in the right range are incredably slim, iirc), that sort of thing. So science and my faith are fully compatible, and will be until the day someone works out what caused the Big Bang:)

[Gothos]

the funny thing is that ihe Big Bang didn't really have to be the start of everything, just a turning point, a turn of the cycle. there's at least several theories using the probable existance of parallel universes, or at least more than 3 space dimensions. I'd love to see a jump at a 90 degree angle to reality :-)

[Adjutant Stormy~]

caladanbrood;270965 said:

Yes, I find that to be a rather widely held, utterly misguided, view.

What I was trying to say - maybe it's a question of wording, and we do mean the same thing - is that Atheism is as much a belief as Theism, but it's an active belief that there isn't a god. Simple lack of belief that there is a god is Agnostisism, I think. Not entirely sure of the line between the two, though.

Ah, Brood, ever the cavalry to Religion's pitched battles.

There is spiritual, anecdotal, and perception-based evidence to the existence of the Supreme Being.

There is no repeatable, experimental, measurable, quantifiable. empirical evidence to that effect.

I would like to clarify this point for you. People who require visible-tangible-tractable-empirical evidence to God's existence are Atheists (one would assume, given the lack of said evidence), and those who have no idea what would make (or break) the concept of a higher power, or those that have yet to be convinced either way- i.e. without conviction and belief, are agnostics.

Atheism is the rejection of belief in God, not the belief that there is no God, but the observation (and interpretation) of lack of empirical evidence to the existence of the inscrutable and omnipotent (the interpretation being that there isn't a certainly of a god unless there is evidence to it's presence. This lack of certaintly leading to a lack of belief- rather than the agnostic point of view that this lack of evidence leads to the suspicion or doubt that there'd be a god.)

That's about all I can muster in this state. Enjoy

[Adjutant Stormy~]

I personally refuse to have my faith classified by the mainstream. If my personal relationship with any (non/existent) deity had anything to do with anybody- I'd let you know.

[D Man]

caladanbrood;270965 said:

Yes, I find that to be a rather widely held, utterly misguided, view.

What I was trying to say - maybe it's a question of wording, and we do mean the same thing - is that Atheism is as much a belief as Theism, but it's an active belief that there isn't a god. Simple lack of belief that there is a god is Agnostisism, I think. Not entirely sure of the line between the two, though.

Non belief is not belief, by definition. Its the opposite.

As Prof Dawkins is so fond of (correctly) pointing out, everyone is an atheist when it comes to all kinds of Gods. Youre (presumably) a thor, Zeus, Minerva, Apollo, Ju-Ju, etc etc etc atheist. As are most people.

Atheism is not believing in any gods. Its not a belief system when it comes to not believing in the god thats named after his job than it is with not believing in Omoikane.

Agnostisism is not knowing whether or not there are any gods.

Both are non-beliefs.

[Dolorous Menhir]

caladanbrood;270965 said:

Yes, I find that to be a rather widely held, utterly misguided, view.

What I was trying to say - maybe it's a question of wording, and we do mean the same thing - is that Atheism is as much a belief as Theism, but it's an active belief that there isn't a god. Simple lack of belief that there is a god is Agnostisism, I think. Not entirely sure of the line between the two, though.

It's clever, the way you frame atheism and agnosticism in a way that best serves your position.

Atheism is not a belief that it is a fact that there is no god. It is an absence of belief in a god. That's not the same thing.

Agnosticism is sitting on the fence. There might be a god, there might no be. They're not convinced either way, and they may think it's not possible to be convinced.

In both cases, these are not "beliefs," as you present them.

[caladanbrood]

Of course, because I have to have an agenda:rolleyes:

Thanks for the clarification guys. The distinction sometimes gets confusing:)

[Nequam]

Dolorous Menhir;271234 said:

It's clever, the way you frame atheism and agnosticism in a way that best serves your position.

Atheism is not a belief that it is a fact that there is no god. It is an absence of belief in a god. That's not the same thing.

Agnosticism is sitting on the fence. There might be a god, there might no be. They're not convinced either way, and they may think it's not possible to be convinced.

In both cases, these are not "beliefs," as you present them.

...Best serves your position? It seemed to me that he was just saying what he thought the word meant.
But anyway what you said seems to be the same thing. If you don't believe in the existence of a god then you have a belief that it is a fact there is no god. That is why they call it a belief, you think it to be the truth. Atheism is a belief in the way I'm presenting it (I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths). Because they believe there is no god.
Saying that, I think an agnostic is someone who thinks there is no way of knowing(same thing you said basically); so you are correct in saying that it is not a belief.

EDIT: spelling

[D Man]

Nequam;271265 said:

...Best serves your position? It seemed to me that he was just saying what he thought the word meant.
But anyway what you said seems to be the same thing. If you don't believe in the existence of a god then you have a belief that it is a fact there is no god. That is why they call it a belief, you think it to be the truth. Atheism is a belief in the way I'm presenting it (I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths). Because they believe there is no god.
Saying that, I think an agnostic is someone who thinks there is no way of knowing(same thing you said basically); so you are correct in saying that it is not a belief.

EDIT: spelling

And you can equally believe there is no Gandalf

Calling athiesm a 'belief' has its source as an attempt by the religious to bring non-believers down to their level and beat them with experience, nothing more.

[Nequam]

Exactly. I believe there is no Gandalf. I believe i am a human male, and I beleive there is some kind of god. Those are all beliefs. An agnostic has no belief, they are uncertain of the whole god thing. ...At least that is what I've been thinking.

I'm not trying to beat anyone at anything.

[D Man]

What I'm saying is basically that its a word-game, Neq:

I believe there is no = dont believe = non-belief

The act of seperating the 'believe' and 'no' disconnects the negative from the declarative, and can give the impression that non-belief = belief and that any non-belief you maintain is an active belief. By definition, it isnt.

Wheres Wittgenstien when you need him?

Stupid linguistic philospher dying before he could join malazan boards. Hmmmmphh.

[Nequam]

haha. Alright, lets call it a lingual truce.

[The Crippled God]

Good old Eastern Orthodox....

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I' m Italian so I' we born among acompletely catholic surrounding but as as I' m really skeptical about religion I can freely say (at least here!) that I'm atheist. I mean the last time I went to church was for my confermation!

_______________________

Quote

You cant be serious!
Death is always serious

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Ace Hunter]

Athiest all the way, God has not appeared in my life so far... lol

[Optimus Prime]

I'm a Universist.

I believe that the Universe is God basically. So meld that with some sort of Agnostic principle and there ya go.

[Illuyankas]

I'm still Batman.





Mostly because I'm not sure if apathist counts.

[Adenosine Tri-Phosphate]

Athiest.

It dazzles me as to how you can be a 'fusion of several other religions', when its very probable that one religion contradicts the other.