[Gem Windcaster]

Falco;148734 said:

Eres is helping through Bottle.

I always got the impression that the reason Eres helps QB is
because Bottle want to help him. Eres is quite enthusiastic about Bottle,
so say the least, so anything he wants to do, she condones with
super-affirmation. But maybe she didn't mind helping QB anyways though...

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic.

[Gem Windcaster]

Ah, good point. Unless she didn't care about QB, but had some interest in
Icarium? Kinda difficult to fanthom why she does what she does...

[Illuyankas]

Well, she was kind of saving Trull from Icarium at the time too.

[Bl1nder]

Illuyankas;149405 said:

Well, she was kind of saving Trull from Icarium at the time too.

Along with Minala's children and the shadow throne itself

[Monoch Ochem]

True Bl1nder but I think Illy was making more of a reference to the Eres' past 'associations' with Trull. SE seems to be casting sex in a primally innocent, essentialist way with her.

[Bl1nder]

Monoch Ochem;149461 said:

True Bl1nder but I think Illy was making more of a reference to the Eres' past 'associations' with Trull. SE seems to be casting sex in a primally innocent, essentialist way with her.

The Eres had previous encounters with Trull? I missed that somewhere along the line I suppose

But I think the mian purpose was to save the Shadow Throne from the Edur, since remember Bottle says " yes yes, I realise you carry a child" and later he realises that he child will be the only "pure" candidate for the Throne

[Illuyankas]

You know Trull's the father of that child, right? Reread the relevant bit from HOC if you don't remember it.

[Bl1nder]

Illuyankas;149507 said:

You know Trull's the father of that child, right? Reread the relevant bit from HOC if you don't remember it.

He is? Lol cheers, I've completley forgot it, even thought i re-readed HoC only like a month ago O.o

[Sir Thursday]

Onrack the breakable;148601 said:

I just love tossing out god theorys. When we first see Ebron in HoC (remember he is the only magic user EVER to put the smack on Karsa, and consider Silgar- an elder Mael Priest was ineffectual magically against Karsa) someone says, "Beru fend" and Ebron says, "Yes".

Haha.

I like!

Good spot!


Sir Thursday

[Onrack the breakable]

buddhacat;148816 said:

In addition, Karsa has grown into a force unto himself, i.e., a personal Toblakai warren. It may be Elder as well. It probably acts to protect him against most sorcerous attacks.

I agree along with this and Monoks reasoning, I was just oversimplifying. The power unleashed is a function of the source(elder or non elder) AND the person casting/using it. But the source of non elder is almost by definition incapable of overcomming Otataral even if the magic is cast by a god like Shadowthrone. On the other hand, a mortal wielding elder magic can draw so much power that in addition to overcomming Otataral effects he/she also damages him/herself irrevocably. I imagine some pnp RPG'er could come up with a mathematical equation describing it but that seems a bit excessive to me. Although I once read a 4 page physics analysis of 'why buttered bread usually lands butter side down'. That was especially well done, for covering an almost unbelievable number of variables.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Quick Ben and Corlo use Elder warrens without being damaged irrevocably.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I thought it wasnt the Elder sorcery per se that did damage to the wielder, just the Elder sorcery riven with Chaos from tCG?

[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;149602 said:

Quick Ben and Corlo use Elder warrens without being damaged irrevocably.

It's a bit confusing...

Both are High Mages, and they used elder warrens, not Holds. It would appear that there is a difference.

In TB when facing the Edur fleet mages, QB makes a specific comment about using Holds, tho it seemed the fleet mages were using Chaos. And even then, he only uses illusion initially.

In MT, we mostly see Letherii Hold users do massive works of magic that are about as subtle as a tactical nuke. There were exceptions tho, like the Ceda, and the mage who tried to take out the river demon thingy by turning into a beam of light.

I suspect part of the distinction is in sheer power available in Holds v Warrens, and part in the higher risk in using Holds. Elder Warrens are in a separate category and probably no more risky that modern warrens, but less accessible and more powerful.

- Abyss, likes the Ebron/Beru theory.

[Onrack the breakable]

Dolorous Menhir;149602 said:

Quick Ben and Corlo use Elder warrens without being damaged irrevocably.

I said they COULD draw so much that they were damaged irrevocably NOT that simply drawing on elder warrens by itself caused irrevocable damage.

What seems to be the case is that for most casters, if they draw on an elder warren for something minor - well maybe alot of energy (the Crimson Sash guy said something about elder holds being like square wheels on a cart) is wasted but doesnt harm the caster.

Next, if a caster is even better they can draw on an elder source (I mean an unshattered source, several times it was mentioned that KE is suceptable to otataral because its fragmented) to such an extent that they can overcome the effects of otataral. This generally doesn't cause any harm to the caster although perhaps marginal caster could damage himself.

But, like the Edur drawing on the CGs warren it is possible that the power drawn from the elder warren is so powerful and/or chaotic that it warps the caster. There is also the question of the god in charge of the elder warren. The CG seems to despise his "followers" which isnt too surprising since they are pretty despicable people -to say the least. He may intentionally overload his warren so anyone twisted enough to use it gets their proper reward. Like Rhulad, Hanan Mosag, the other Edur warlocks, etc.

[Monoch Ochem]

Chaos twists. Simple. SD seems to be chaos aspected but you have to be a dragon to use it...i.e., sufficiently powerful to withstand its effects. Hairlock used it but it twisted his mind. It would have twisted his flesh also BUT he had none...the puppet form was the barrier, as with QB's Sticksnare. I think normal mortal flesh cannot witstand chaos...even those vultures in MoI...there was a demon to buffer the magic while occupying those birds' bodies. Same for HM and the sea demon...but he was no longer in the favour of the CG, so he was permitted to escape his malformation via the demon. If he wasn't Usurped by Rhulad, the CG would have twisted him in one way or another. Buffer.

So I don't think it's because of the fact that a warren is Elder that's the problem, it's the presence of chaos than harms. I believe that the skill of the mage determines how any warren or hold is used, provided that the warren/hold's denizens permit its use.

[Dark Mac]

Monoch Ochem;150588 said:

Chaos twists. Simple. SD seems to be chaos aspected but you have to be a dragon to use it...i.e., sufficiently powerful to withstand its effects.

How can SD be Chaos aspected? I'd say it's Dragon aspected, just as OP is Ice aspected. It's just weird to think of dragon as an aspect.

[buddhacat]

Dark Mac;150686 said:

How can SD be Chaos aspected? I'd say it's Dragon aspected, just as OP is Ice aspected. It's just weird to think of dragon as an aspect.

Can you explain: You say "it's Dragon aspected", then you say "it's just weird to think of dragon as an aspect". What do you mean?

As for the chaos-aspect of SD, I think it makes sense:

Omtose Phellack - aspected to Ice - used by Jaghut (and the Wolves, perhaps)
Kurald Galain - aspected to Dark - used by Tiste Andii
...so on...
Starvald Demelain - aspected to Chaos - used by Dragons

[Abyss]

I think that backwards - dragons are aspected to warrens, not the other way around.

Which is a twist on the newer warrens being human-aspected. Hmmm... i think we just stumbled onto something...

Founding/Tiste/Elder races are aspected to their warrens (ie: darkness is a fundamental part of Tiste Andii), but the younger warrens are human-aspected (ie: the human race is not aspected to a particular warren, rather, multiple warrens, including Ruse, are aspected to humans).

And that may be why using Hold magic is more dangerous to humans than using warren magic.

- Abyss, just shook your world.

[buddhacat]

Abyss;150703 said:

I think that backwards - dragons are aspected to warrens, not the other way around.

My understanding is that before the Dragons created the warrens (i.e., imposed order), they were in Starvald Demelain, and aspected to it as such (this is why I say that SD is aspected to Chaos; IIRC, this also squares with the decription of Spite's SD action when freeing Dejim Nebrahl). After creating the warrens, each Dragon was aspected to that warren (plus some sharing, forced by Krul; this was reported by one of the three chained Dragons). It is unclear when this was done, although I think it was before the time of the Holds, before even the sundering of KE.