[worry]

Spoiler

Captain America (specifically Steve Rogers) was a secret Nazi the whole time.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 25 May 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

Abyss, on 25 May 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Also out of left field, Alan Moore spontaneously combusted.

What happened this time?

SPOILER - The whole nu52 rebirth reboot thing is being blamed on a Watchmen character.

amphibian, on 26 May 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Justice (the Alex Ross series) was very good. I think he's a little weak in terms of depicting action that isn't super burly or fast (Superman, Flash, Shazam), but an excellent shower of faces and scenes.

JUSTICE is all kinds of fun and so so very pretty to look at.

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 May 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

Nicodimas, on 25 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Glances at Marvel drama. Wow.

This is why I mainly read Image these days.

I think I missed something. Could you point me in the right direction.

worry, on 26 May 2016 - 01:48 AM, said:

Spoiler

Captain America (specifically Steve Rogers) was a secret Nazi the whole time.

Don't stress. I guarantee he'll get better.

[JPK]

Huh. Can't say I saw that one coming. I will say I had to look to verify it once I realized you were the one that responded Worry.

Also, currently reading both East of West vol 2 and the Richard K Morgan run on Black Widow.

[amphibian]

Rip Morgan on Black Widow is incredible. The finest stories told with that character ever.

A few more thoughts on Ross's Justice: I don't like the Utopian future of it because it seems to suggest that the superheroes figure out a way to bring utopia to Earth/the galaxy. The whole point and complexity of Justice is that the villains do more of a good job helping people than the actual heroes do in the first place. Things are screwed up, especially relating to technology, which the very very rich/super powered heroes have enormous amounts of and the average person not very much. Why isn't there already universal healthcare and nanobots making people better?

Also thought that the resolution of having the villains/Brainiac be the threat they were dreaming was lame. Would have been better if Darkseid or someone on that level showed up to truly be a threat worth rearranging the entire social order of the planet for.

[worry]

Just Plain Kitsu, on 26 May 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

I will say I had to look to verify it once I realized you were the one that responded Worry.

If there's a more scathing indictment of Marvel's decision, I haven't read it.

[QuickTidal]

DC REBIRTH by Geoff Johns (multiple artists, for each chapter within the book).

Fuck me. When I initially heard about REBIRTH, I thought this was going to be DC being bankrupt...but goddamned if Geoff Mutha-fuzuking Johns didn't bring shit back to square and make an AMAZING story that has incredibly enticing implications.

Spoilers for the book.

Spoiler

I mean…I doubt I could be THIS impressed. I thought it might be good, but I didn’t think it would be amazing.

It’s amazing.

Some point forms.

- Wally is the narrator throughout, as he tries to get back into the world from the Speedforce.
- Direct text and pictographic references to COIE and FLASHPOINT and ties to both.
- Wally’s key goal is to let Bruce know that the letter from Thomas that he keeps (which is the big feature of Flashpoint after Flash stops himself from saving his mother which causes the initial change into the Flashpoint world) is one of the major things wrong with the current universe.
- Pandora is seemingly a minion of Dr. Manhattan, and treated as such. The Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan is seemingly the guy who created the New52 Universe where everyone is young and redoing their origins ect. and Ozymandias is also fucking with shit, as is Comedian apparently.
- There is a Wally and Barry hug scene that is BEYOND poignant with everything leading to it…like "shedding tears on the bus this morning as I read" poignant.
- It SEEMS like The Watchmen are being turned into the main foe for the Rebirthing of the old universe. Wally gets back, but knows that something is wrong with the universe as it stands. Batman finds the Comedian’s button.
- Classic Wally is related to New52 Wally as a cousin of sorts (alt-universe logistics), and approves of him as Kid Flash (possibly one of the Miles Morales-type folding into the old continuity characters? Not sure.)
- New52 Superman’s death is a catalyst of sorts. Not sure how it will change things yet.
- The TITANS (Classic Wally’s titans) are back, in ADDITION to the TEEN TITANS it would seem.
- I think this is going to be DC’s version of SECRET WARS, folding the New 52 universe back out into the multiverse as a unique earth…but not OUR earth…or Earth 1 as it were. And reestablishing Earth 1 Pre-Flashpoint continuity.
- As a result, making the Watchmen the villains…is KINDA genius…especially because Alan Moore is probably having a damned aneurysm…and you know what? The guy has been grumpy shit for so long now that I’m really glad of it. As PG said, fuck Alan Moore basically. Which is probably a horrible stance to take, but there it is and I won't apologize for it.
- Three Jokers aspect is only BRIEFLY mentioned here (was apparently more mentioned in the final issue of of the New52 JL), but one could assume that it’s the New 52 Joker, the Classic Joker, and perhaps one from CRISIS?
- Classic Clark APPEARS to exist in the continuity now, married to Lois and with a son (Jon) but not as Superman…yet.
- This one is big. There is a cryptic scene with a blonde being interrogated. She wants to talk to Superman, and is told Superman is missing/probably dead (New52 Supes)…and she says "I’ve seen the future, it’s going to be okay. I’ll wait.”…and has nothing on her but a Legion ring! Saturn Girl FTW!

Basically, at the end of this I was sitting there like...aw hell, I said I was out...but they sucked me back in! You magnificent bastard Johns!

So, going forward, I’m going to be picking up:

DETECTIVE COMICS (old classic numbering) - James Tynion IV
ACTION COMICS (old classic numbering) - Dan Jurgens
FLASH - Josh Williamson
TITANS (This is the Wally-centric one, and not the separate TEEN TITANS title) - Dan Abnett!
SUPERMAN - Peter J. Tomasi, Pat Gleason (these two KILLED it on B&R in the New52 continuity)

And though it hasn't been announced yet...if LEGION really does come back…and that Saturn Girl scene seems to indicate it will…I will be picking it up...and rumour has it that Jonathan Hickman himself may be penning it! Basically…bangarang Rufio! LEGION is long due for a comeback.

At the VERY least. And for multiple issues to see where this all goes. I know I said I was out, but this one issue and how clever everything is, and how this basically ties ALL the way back to CRISIS OF INFINITE EARTHS and FLASHPOINT...plus the utter genius of possibly making the Watchmen villains? (Sticking it to Alan Moore in style!)…yep, consider me in like Flynn. Well played DC…very well played.

Sidebar: Consider Marvel's complete Captain America recent fuckup noted above...DC may be able to win the summer with their REBIRTH event, while Marvel Now (All New! All Different!) is a bit stale and

Spoiler

Marvel has made their biggest hero, one created by a Jewish writer to boot, into a damned Nazi

...whether or not it's just some twisty gimmick that will be undone somehow (it is a gimmick and it totally will, no WAY that sticks in any way) that's going to look like a huge misstep after the fact methinks.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 May 2016 - 12:50 PM

[Abyss]

Re DC REBIRTH... SPOILERS ....I agree it was a solid story, but the long term implications of the WATCHMEN... look, I don't care how fucking brilliant Johns may be... at some point Batman is going to team up with Roscharch and Harley Quinn is going to team up with Silhouette and these things are going to suck as bad if not worse as those Watchmen Prequel things. Also, the extent of REBIRTH as an apology and 'we take it all back we were wrong for the last five years please please please come back... again....' effort is pretty stunning, at times hamhanded. As much as I worship Johns for his JSA and GL stories, nothing there is going to pull me back to DC floppies.

Re Marvel and Cap... I do not understand the level of reaction to this. It's a single storyline in an ongoing monthly comic... does anyone seriously believe that at the end of it Cap is going to stay as suggested? Seriously? Cap has quit at least twice, died at least four times, been possessed, hopped up on crack, and a werewolf... FFS, comics!

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 May 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

Re DC REBIRTH... SPOILERS ....I agree it was a solid story, but the long term implications of the WATCHMEN... look, I don't care how fucking brilliant Johns may be... at some point Batman is going to team up with Roscharch and Harley Quinn is going to team up with Silhouette and these things are going to suck as bad if not worse as those Watchmen Prequel things. Also, the extent of REBIRTH as an apology and 'we take it all back we were wrong for the last five years please please please come back... again....' effort is pretty stunning, at times hamhanded. As much as I worship Johns for his JSA and GL stories, nothing there is going to pull me back to DC floppies.

I've never understood the reverence for THE WATCHMEN. It's decent, but it is by no means the holy goddamned grail of comics and never was. It seems to speak to a certain quotient and era of comic fans. I am not one of them. I found it mediocre at best personally.

And I don't think that Johns is bringing the Watchmen into continuity so they can be used alongside the DC heroes...but rather that they are the Monitor/Anti-Monitor (if you will allow the analogy) of the event that is the apology for the New52. Sure, they may be used down the line for this title or that title...but I don't think teamups are in the works. The Watchmen prequels appear (in hindsight) to have been specifically designed to set up this Rebirth as a long game. Johns goal (he reiterated on Seth Myers last night) is to bring Hope and Optimism back to the DC universe. That's an Anti-Watchmen stance if I ever heard one. And let's be frank, the Watchmen, even the good ones...are dark, brooding, and NOT superheroes in any way shape or form. If anything, I think Johns has realized this and has acted accordingly to utilize them as a means to an end. A way to get back what was lost. I think the clearest indicator of this is that they haven;'t been used SINCE the Watchmen prequels. IF they were looking to milk them like you suggest they will, they would have done so already I think. The New52 universe (52 titles, 52 issues in just over 5 years) was the perfect place to do that...but they've not been seen since 2013.

Anyways, that's my take. I've been off all regular DC floppies (aside from New52 BATMAN) for years now...but the Rebirthing of the post-Crisis universe is far too enticing to me to not take a big bite.

[Abyss]

I could argue the point on the significance of WATCHMEN, particularly in the context of the time it was written and what came after, but I can also acknowledge its flaws (GIANT SPACE VAGINA SQUID!!!!!).

The point, tho`, is that someone, maybe Johns, decided to work the Watchmen characters into Rebirth likely as a hook for a specific segment of readers (North American adults with money) who fled years ago, and I think that is ridiculous on multiple levels. Do they fit as the grimdark counterpoint to what DC is trying to recast its comics as...? sure. But do they belong in this or any DC `main`story....? no, and I dislike that the Watchmen work will be diluted in an attempt to repair the mess DC made of its product.




See also using TDKR as a 'source' for BvS and how that turned out.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 May 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

I could argue the point on the significance of WATCHMEN, particularly in the context of the time it was written and what came after, but I can also acknowledge its flaws (GIANT SPACE VAGINA SQUID!!!!!).

The point, tho`, is that someone, maybe Johns, decided to work the Watchmen characters into Rebirth likely as a hook for a specific segment of readers (North American adults with money) who fled years ago, and I think that is ridiculous on multiple levels. Do they fit as the grimdark counterpoint to what DC is trying to recast its comics as...? sure. But do they belong in this or any DC `main`story....? no, and I dislike that the Watchmen work will be diluted in an attempt to repair the mess DC made of its product.

I get that, but I'll always come back to the fact that The Watchmen only exists because Moore and Gibbons wanted to use the Charlton Comics main characters and were not allowed (as their one story [WATHCMEN] would completely dilute those characters and DC was not having the characters they JUST bought be used that way), stubbornly Moore and Gibbons crafted their own versions of them (not all that far removed in some case at all) and then signed a contract (dubiousness aside) at DC to do just that...and that factor always makes me think...these guys were INTENT on using the Blue Beetle, Captain Atom ect. and completely deconstructing them in a one-off mininseries. Instead of making up a whole set of their own characters who they could freely deconstruct without damaging existing IPs, one might argue they did that, but the Watchmen are FAR too closely carbon copies of the Charlton heroes for that to fly...but they were intent. So DC kind of screwed them in the end for it...which was shady...but honestly that was in the 1980's and this is now. A whole different editorial staff exists at DC and none of them were there when this all went down. The IP's belong to them, and they can use them as they see fit.

So just like Moore and Gibbons being intent to use the Charlton heroes (just with a coat of paint and new names) and deconstruct them into unrecognizable AS heroes heroes, I see nothing whatsoever wrong with DC using those same ones to fold into their universe and even use some as scapegoats. It's ALL fair game as far as I am concerned as a result of Moore's bent in the first place to destroy classic characters.

Man, I never realized how much I disliked the Watchmen...perhaps it's my newfound love of those original Charlton comic characters? I dunno.

Blue Beetle forever, fuck the Nite Owl!

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

...I get that, but I'll always come back to the fact that The Watchmen only exists because Moore and Gibbons wanted to use the Charlton Comics main characters and were not allowed (as their one story [WATHCMEN] would completely dilute those characters and DC was not having the characters they JUST bought be used that way), stubbornly Moore and Gibbons crafted their own versions of them...

It's the latter point that eliminates the relevancy of the former.

Yes, they set out to do one thing, but they ended up doing something very different and better and more significant/impressive.

Quote

... The IP's belong to them, and they can use them as they see fit.

True.

But what they are doing is ignoring any value in the original to have the Watchmen as plot drivers/dollar hooks as they try to repair five years of plummeting sales, and to me, that's weak and unnecessary considering just how much they had to work with. What, the Anti-Monitor, Parallax, Darkseid, Mister Mind and, I dunno, Ambush Bug were all busy this week?

Quote

...Blue Beetle forever, fuck the Nite Owl!

Blue Beetle started out well enough when they brought him back post COIE, but he became the punchline to his own jokes. Nite Owl may have been based on him, but he was something else entirely.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 May 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

But what they are doing is ignoring any value in the original to have the Watchmen as plot drivers/dollar hooks as they try to repair five years of plummeting sales, and to me, that's weak and unnecessary considering just how much they had to work with. What, the Anti-Monitor, Parallax, Darkseid, Mister Mind and, I dunno, Ambush Bug were all busy this week?

I think the very fact that the previous big event re-setters like CRISIS and IC, and FC HAVE used new creations like then Monitor/Anti-Monitor gives them more leeway to use existing IPs that they don't normally use this time...and the Watchmen actually fit PERFECTLY into the creation of the darker, grittier New52 universe. It's MUCH more in line with their ideals and backdrops than anyone else in the DCU. So while you COULD use a new creation (or a previous big baddie), I think it's poetic to use the band of non-heroes that are the Watchmen to re-fit the DCU.

Is it milking or drive/dollars to use them? I can see that argument...but I don't think Johns is doing that. I think he honestly wanted to use them because of how similar they are to the New52 and how IF Dr. Manhattan DID create a universe HE thought was perfect...it would look a lot like the New52. I can't imagine that doesn't play a part here. And possibly a bigger part than money...because honestly, most WATCHMEN fans I know don't like this feature at all...so it can hardly even be a cash in can it?

I dunno. I get what you are saying, but I think Johns is being honest in his endeavors here...and bringing back the old DCU...however we get there, I'm happy with.

Oh, and Darkseid was killed and has been reborn to the New52 in the most recent JL story..he was not available for suresies.

[polishgenius]

I haven't read it yet, but I think using Watchmen also speaks to the thematic thing they have going on - it's not just the last five years Johns is addressing, he's all about meshing the spirit of the Silver and Bronze Ages with the modern stuff and since Watchmen more or less defines the end of the Bronze Age and the start of the grim'n'gritty really setting in, there's a meta-connection there that works for me. I hope they end up respecting the characters (Johns should, of course there's the issue of after Johns but we'll see), because unlike QT I think Watchmen is seminal and a fantastic work, but from the early signs I think it's a twist worth trying.


Darkseid can't be used for this sort of thing coz he's used waaaaay too often as it is. Honestly, like the Daleks in Doctor Who, they need to give him a rest. He should have been out of commission since Final Crisis- if they'd done that, then having him be the guy would make perfect sense since his end there could easily be worked into having the kind of influence Manhattan appears to be exerting now.

[Abyss]

WATCHMEN was concluded in 1987.

The movie was 2009. It may have caused a surge in TP sales, but hardly resurrected the property or comics generally.

BEFORE WATCHMEN was 37 issues (which were supposed to be 7) of mostly poor sales and bad comics in 2012.

There are many things to be said about Alan Moore, but I think he was right about WATCHMEN being a briefly special comic and DC trying desperately to extend that by making it the same as every other comic. At root to me it feels like painting racing stripes on the dead horse and hoping it jumpstarts the rest of the junkyard.

Also, Johns stating Manhattan is 'an antagonist but not a villain' screams desperate spin control.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Also, Johns stating Manhattan is 'an antagonist but not a villain' screams desperate spin control.

Well yeah, Manhattan doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. He's the ultimate wrong-headed god-powered individual. I never assumed he was being evil (like the Joker, or Darkseid, the watch the world burn type), rather that he got more and more misguided with his experiment (the new 52) as it spiraled out of control. Like that one episode of the 90's Outer Limits when Jeff Bridges controls those little scorpion alien thingies in the sandbox and they eventually get far away from him and his own personality LOOKS bad to the outsider. That's why the Pandora death in Rebirth MIMICS the Rorschach death so perfectly (see below spoilerized images). Johns is literally showing Doctor Manhattan, once again, trying to right his wrongs...by destroying one of the very things he had a hand in creating. It's very much the repentant god being digger further into his hole while trying to get out.

Spoiler

Watchmen Left, Rebirth right.

Context, layout, AND dialogue.

 WatchmenVSRebirth.jpg (331.6K)
Number of downloads: 0

With regards to Alan Moore, the guy doesn't know what he wants anymore. He now says something like "Comics are too bleak and need lightening up to what they were when I was a kid"....meanwhile he wrote AND bitches about the very deconstruction graphic novel that CAUSED all what we saw since then in comics. He makes comics gritty with a blatant satire that is aped in the industry...and now he moans about it. I mean, which is it old man?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 May 2016 - 05:25 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 27 May 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Also, Johns stating Manhattan is 'an antagonist but not a villain' screams desperate spin control.

Well yeah, Manhattan doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. He's the ultimate wrong-headed god-powered individual. I never assumed he was being evil (like the Joker, or Darkseid, the watch the world burn type), rather that he got more and more misguided with his experiment (the new 52) as it spiraled out of control. Like that one episode of the 90's Outer Limits when Jeff Bridges controls those little scorpion alien thingies in the sandbox and they eventually get far away from him and his own personality LOOKS bad to the outsider.

Exactly. And you, as an experienced comic and genre reader, figured that out in one panel.
Or you didn't, but were prepared to go along the ride to find out.

I like Johns, i think he's a brilliant writer, but when the head writer feels the need to explain... or 'spoil'... the Big Bad (or whatever)'s motivation bare days after issue 0 streets, something is wrong.


...and i would bet dollars that five years from now Dr Manhattan will turn out to be Parallax in disguise... or under the control of the Anti-Anti-Anti Monitor... or a robot with Mister Mind in his head... or Lex Luthor from Earth-69 in blue body paint with a giant blue penis....

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

I like Johns, i think he's a brilliant writer, but when the head writer feels the need to explain... or 'spoil'... the Big Bad (or whatever)'s motivation bare days after issue 0 streets, something is wrong.

I think it's more damage control in the age of social media and everyone who would freak out about it. He's just getting ahead of them. And Johns has never been shy about explaining things if he thinks it will help.

I don't think there is much wrong with that...especially because it's an established character. I'm more impressed that we know how is behind their big event BEFORE the first issue dropped officially. The fact that DC didn't feel the need to tease out "Who is the person behind all this!" as they might have done in the past....for a late game reveal...speaks volumes to where they are creatively here. Instead we are being told who is responsible up front (no secrets, or cliffhangers, or shadowy figures), and the creativity that will keep people coming back will instead be character based, and plot based, and story based. I honestly can't believe this is DC when their last major events (even the initial New 52 launch to an extent) were basically "Who is behind this?" mysteries. I'm glad we don't have to go through that this time.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 27 May 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

I like Johns, i think he's a brilliant writer, but when the head writer feels the need to explain... or 'spoil'... the Big Bad (or whatever)'s motivation bare days after issue 0 streets, something is wrong.

I think it's more damage control in the age of social media and everyone who would freak out about it. ...

Just my view, but he should have shut up and let them freak out about it. Social media is most useful as a marketing tool when it runs amok.
This "sshhhh... sshhhh... don't worry children your favorite comic character from 1987 will be ok" approach dilutes the reveal.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 May 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

I like Johns, i think he's a brilliant writer, but when the head writer feels the need to explain... or 'spoil'... the Big Bad (or whatever)'s motivation bare days after issue 0 streets, something is wrong.

I think it's more damage control in the age of social media and everyone who would freak out about it. ...

Just my view, but he should have shut up and let them freak out about it. Social media is most useful as a marketing tool when it runs amok.
This "sshhhh... sshhhh... don't worry children your favorite comic character from 1987 will be ok" approach dilutes the reveal.

Fair enough...and I guess Marvel followed suit by letting everyone know that Cap is not a Nazi...just Hydra, and Hydra in 2016 isn't Hydra of the 40's...or something.

But what if the bad press people invent by freaking out, has a detrimental effect on the product? See: JOHN CARTER movie.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 27 May 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 May 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 May 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

I like Johns, i think he's a brilliant writer, but when the head writer feels the need to explain... or 'spoil'... the Big Bad (or whatever)'s motivation bare days after issue 0 streets, something is wrong.

I think it's more damage control in the age of social media and everyone who would freak out about it. ...

Just my view, but he should have shut up and let them freak out about it. Social media is most useful as a marketing tool when it runs amok.
This "sshhhh... sshhhh... don't worry children your favorite comic character from 1987 will be ok" approach dilutes the reveal.

Fair enough...and I guess Marvel followed suit by letting everyone know that Cap is not a Nazi...just Hydra, and Hydra in 2016 isn't Hydra of the 40's...or something.

But what if the bad press people invent by freaking out, has a detrimental effect on the product? See: JOHN CARTER movie.

CARTER was a bad movie killed by being bad first and bad press second.

If DC (or Marvel) confidently produced great comics that people loved, no amount of bad press would stop the dollars.

Conversely, no amount of spin control will save a bad comic. I'll cheerfully stand corrected if REBIRTH turns out to be the next SINESTRO CORPS, as opposed to the next COVERGENCE which seems more likely.