[Dolorous Menhir]

Strange that nobody has mentioned Dassem and Traveller having different eye colours yet.

The problem with the original post is that you are assuming that:

a) Admiral Nok knows the whole truth about the Family and Dassem's role in it

&

the Admiral was telling Tavore the whole unvarnished truth.

We have the example of Hawl to demonstrate that at least one of these assumptions are false. Either Nok didn't know she lived (so what else does he not know?) or he chose not to reveal it (so what else was he not telling?).

I think the main evidence that people cite from NoK is this (NoK spoilers, but many people don't have access to the book and I'm not giving anything away by revealing that Dassem didn't actually die at Y'Ghatan, since we know that by this point in the main series anyway).

Spoiler

During the last conversation seen between Temper & Dassem, this significant exchange occurs:

Night of Knives, page 176:

Dassem gave a tired nod. It was an old argument.

"What will you do?" [Temper]

"Travel. Head West."

"What in Togg's name could possibly be out there?" Ferrule snapped, furious as always when thwarted in anything.

Dassem's smile cut at Temper's soul, so wintry was it. "Something. Something's out there. Maybe what I'm looking for."

----

Note the reference to "travel." Also a lot of the actions Dassem takes, which we are seeing for the first time in detail, are reminiscent of the man we've already seen, whose name is Traveller.

That's interesting, you can't include a quote inside a spoiler.

[Monoch Ochem]

@ Vaiski: I don't think you've have an ungracious moment on this Forum Vaisk'...'affable equanimity,' to quote Lady Envy. There you go Iarwain; some support for ya!

So it's established that Dassem=Dessembrae. Then we see the Traveller (uber powerful enough to hold off the Edur, and its very likely they used sorcerers again, which he withstood, so it fits in with him being a god)...naming his sword Grief. In a nutshell, that's the kernel of it. What's in a few Chinese whispers to refute all that? Admiral Nok's sequential recollection? Even when countered by Apsalar's insider info??

Naaah. Traveller's Dassem. ... tee-hee!

[Tattooed Hand]

Kallor;142587 said:

lmao ... it's like these arguments are generational within the groups of fans here ... thank you all for making me chuckle just before i have to don my cold armour and face -34C temps ...

Yikes! That's the only down side of Canada as far as I am concerned.

As for who is what, I think in terms of evidence, we need to realize that not every character has accurate information. This could be because SE perhaps has a hard time keeping track of the facts, or it could be a very salient point about historical knowledge, that the archives are really just the information and memory of others that are always incomplete, flawed and contradictory. I think the most convincing case is the rightest answer? Pick your version.

Personally, I think Traveller is Dassem.

[tiam]

IMO he obviosly traveller. Not just because of Nok but Bh gives us a small but blatantly obvious hint from Braven Tooth. He says about how he only cried when Dassem died and said 'stupid me for beleiving everything i hear' then says about how it was familiar the way Travellor just cut through them on Drift Avalii. Dassem and braven tooth clearly know each other.

Btw no one say maybe its greymane or someone we dont know yet cos you know its not

As for eye colour weve read round bigger inconsistencies than that

[Dolorous Menhir]

tiam;143068 said:

IMO he obviosly traveller. Not just because of Nok but Bh gives us a small but blatantly obvious hint from Braven Tooth. He says about how he only cried when Dassem died and said 'stupid me for beleiving everything i hear' then says about how it was familiar the way Travellor just cut through them on Drift Avalii. Dassem and braven tooth clearly know each other.

I just read that comment as revealing that Dassem was still alive, and Braven Tooth learned that was so after first believing him dead. Didn't see any way that pointed to Traveller - when did Braven Tooth speak about Traveller? Did Foreigner (Withal) mention Traveller when he was in Coop's with the assorted ne'er-do-wells? Don't remember that.

Quote

Btw no one say maybe its greymane or someone we dont know yet cos you know its not

True, we don't. But it's so overwhelming likely to be Traveller. And Greymane is a different Malazan general who was clearly a distinct person from Dassem Ultor.

[caladanbrood]

Fun fun:D

I have always held to the idea that Dassem is not Traveller, for reasons already mentioned - Deslan's original post, plus trusting Nok over Apsalar's second hand memories, and different eye colours, one of them being described as Dal Honese and the other not...

Plus, most importantly, I bet Anomander a pint on who was right!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Admiral Nok.

House of Chains, on page 296, said:

Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor - who was, like Kellanved, of Dal Honese blood - and a renegade High Septarch of the D'rek cult, Tayschrenn.

Cutter.

House of Chains, on page 529, said:

Hanging back a step from these two was the man [Traveller]. Cutter guessed that he was Dal Honese , dusky-skinned, grey-shot black curled hair on his head cut short - though his eyes were, incongruously, a deep blue.

Traveller is referred to as Dal Honese by the narrator at least twice more in the following pages. So where's the conflict?

[Clip]

tiam;143068 said:

Btw no one say maybe its greymane or someone we dont know yet cos you know its not

There is no way in the history of the universe that Traveller is Greymane because he(Greymane) is still part of the Empire, fighting in the Koreli campaign.

The fact remains that we dont know who Traveller is or was...

But I still think he's Dassem despite the various inconsistencies, SE is human after all, as far as we know.

[caladanbrood]

Dolorous Menhir;143128 said:

Traveller is referred to as Dal Honese by the narrator at least twice more in the following pages. So where's the conflict?

Well I don't remember - I don't have the books, and it's a long time since I was properly active in the book forums and could recall passages at will:)

Knew there was something to do with Dal Honese though;)

[tiam]

Dolorous Menhir;143074 said:

I just read that comment as revealing that Dassem was still alive, and Braven Tooth learned that was so after first believing him dead. Didn't see any way that pointed to Traveller - when did Braven Tooth speak about Traveller? Did Foreigner (Withal) mention Traveller when he was in Coop's with the assorted ne'er-do-wells? Don't remember that.



True, we don't. But it's so overwhelming likely to be Traveller. And Greymane is a different Malazan general who was clearly a distinct person from Dassem Ultor.

IIRC Bravenm tooth claims that he shouldnt beleive everything he hears. Banshar then says ' and what is that supposed to mean or something like that. Then Barven Tooth mentions something about how familiar it seems about Travellor. Now that suggests unless Braven Tooth trained Rake (not entirely impossible) then hes talking about Dassem.

[Svaran]

Well I'm glad Dassem survived, now I'm hoping to meet the other uber swordsman greymane, the other guy mentioned in the same breath as the segulah 1st, rake and Dassem mentioned by Brood.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Yeah, he's mentioned so often you'd think he'd have appeared by now. Maybe we'll see him in RG....

[Abyss]

I always like how certain characters along the Nefarias Bredd line are built up huge even tho we never/almost never see them.

Anyrate, we've seen Greymane at least once per book already.

You just don't know it.

Because Greymane doesn't want you to.

See thread: http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...=greymane+facts

- Abyss, thread pimp.

[Falco]

Abyss;143751 said:

See thread: http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...=greymane+facts

I see I missed some Abyssal gold while I was away. Gold, 24 ct.

[Asheroth]

*gasp* Falco! What happened to your join date?

Join with me, we can be long-lost veteran forumites together. Now we need Bottle to turn up so he can post a long and incomprehensible rant while completely ignoring the points made by everyone else. Ah the good old days...

[Falco]

Asheroth;143917 said:

*gasp* Falco! What happened to your join date?

Join with me, we can be long-lost veteran forumites together. Now we need Bottle to turn up so he can post a long and incomprehensible rant while completely ignoring the points made by everyone else. Ah the good old days...

I wasn't around for the switch to this forum and somehow my account got buggered up. Bottle hehe, he disappeared has he? Darn...

[Kallor]

@clip ... aye, you're a sly one ...

[Monoch Ochem]

What now Pallor? You'd have us doubt SE's human, that it??

[tiam]

clip;143135 said:

There is no way in the history of the universe that Traveller is Greymane because he(Greymane) is still part of the Empire, fighting in the Koreli campaign.

The fact remains that we dont know who Traveller is or was...

But I still think he's Dassem despite the various inconsistencies, SE is human after all, as far as we know.

Errrr Greymanes dead/publicly dead which means hes in barbados somewhere livingit up with Ameron. In BH Noto Boil says that ipshank stayed loyal to Greymane to the very end which suggests they died. It also explains why the Krelri campaign is such a disaster