[Jimmy]

Is she the Fokrul goddess?

[kmalley]

yes!

[GardenGnome]

Maybe.

Or maybe not...

[tiam]

We dont know. Its assumed given the extra joints but jaghut hae extra joints (only stated in DG tho). She also has Imass facial characteristics and is as big as a few toblakhai but yes its likely she is the mother of the FA especially seen as the FA lost thier way

[Aptorian]

tiam;134172 said:

We dont know. Its assumed given the extra joints but jaghut hae extra joints (only stated in DG tho). She also has Imass facial characteristics and is as big as a few toblakhai but yes its likely she is the mother of the FA especially seen as the FA lost thier way

It's the last part, children who lost their way which we are unsure about.

Does getting wiped out constitute becoming lost? Had the FA changed in some way before the coming of the Edur and Andii? We just don't know.

The Dragons, TTT, KCCM, Eres, Deragoth even, seem to have become pretty lost back in the time of the Elder Gods.

[GardenGnome]

^^ Apt said what I should've said last night - my maybe/maybe not was more a reply to the definite "yes!" presented by kmalley.

Hey, could it be fair to argue that the Elder Gods themselves had lost their way? Atleast within "this realm", ie KE (which is the realm Anomander says Killys childer have lost their way in). Given that we don't know the different gods' stance to the crisis, it could be argued that they might've lost their way (yes, this is all very wild speculations - bear with me, I'm not building up to a serious point). Thus, we could even argue - true, through very wild speculations - that Kilmandaros' lost children are the Elder Gods. Kilmandaros is the Elder Goddess of the Elder Gods! Yay! Or we could say she's "Daughter Shadow", the true Elder Goddess of the Tiste Edur!

More to the point, this was to show how widely it's possible to speculate, while still being within the limits of what we know.

[Jorram]

Extremely far-fetched given the complete lack of reverence from Mael, no?

Also, it's Gothos, not Anomander, who speaks about children having lost their way, and the realm is not KE but Wu.

The most likely choices are KCCM (they are just defeated and virtually obliterated from Wu, hence have lost their way) and FA (the joints). Both of these work for being "sent after [Gothos]". There are very strong arguments against each of them as well, though.

[GardenGnome]

Yes, it seems the only reason we pick out FA is because of the joints. That's a very weak connection, the way I see it. Why should the god bear any resemblence to it's children? We're not talking about genetic lines here! Besides, we know very little of FA history - I can't remember anything that would fit to describe a "loss of way" (please correct me if I'm wrong here). On the other hand, for example TTT we do know of great cities, advanced metallurgy and so on, which it seems they have lost. The TTT are often refered to as a fallen people in the "present" world of Wu. In my oppinion this fits better with the idea of a fallen people.

Then again, you have the limitations of "within this realm", which could mean so much. If we say "this realm" means just the warren realm of KE, then it's infinitly harder to know of any people who have lost their way. As such, the only people we know of in KE that lost their way must be the Edur, and I rather doubt Killy is the goddess of the Edur.

[Lister of Smeg]

Maybe Kilmandaros created the FA to bring peace to the world, but justice meaning they would rule peacefully and settle arguments, etc. The FA "losing their way" is them twisting their roles to what they are now - bringing peace by destroying everyone else.

[Aptorian]

Lord Baelish;134202 said:

Maybe Kilmandaros created the FA to bring peace to the world, but justice meaning they would rule peacefully and settle arguments, etc. The FA "losing their way" is them twisting their roles to what they are now - bringing peace by destroying everyone else.

I've been thinking about that aswell.

There seems to have been some link between the FA and the Errant, who indeed meddles in things by pushing and pulling. It's mentioned somewhere that the FA's settle disputes, insert order where there is discord.

Maybe when the FA decided that the best way to obtain peace was through death, is when they lost their way.

I think the main problem I have with Killy being the Mother of the FA's is her appearance. Yes, she's got extra joints and has a sliding gait, but she's the size of a 2 story building, got legs like oak tree's and shoulder's the width of a TTT... She's HUGE!

I'd like her to be an elemental entity for something like earth more than I'd like her being a FA goddess. It's strange, Mael, K'rul, Draconus, Night Chill, all seem to have had human like apperances. Killy's like nothing else we've seen.

[Xaspian]

On the link between the Errant and the Forkrul Assail, Ganath to Paran:

"The Errant's enemy was ennui, stagnation. This is why the Forkrul Assail sought to annihilate him. And all his mortal followers."

Not sure if that's helpful, but it's interesting.

[GardenGnome]

It does mean that the FA worked towards stagnation... I guess that's one way of achieving stability.

It's a common concept (for example in Feist) that evil benefits from total order or total chaos - of course, that's hardly relevant here, as MBotF hardly has any concept of good and evil. |

[Tiger_sword]

GardenGnome;134241 said:

It does mean that the FA worked towards stagnation... I guess that's one way of achieving stability.

It's a common concept (for example in Feist) that evil benefits from total order or total chaos - of course, that's hardly relevant here, as MBotF hardly has any concept of good and evil. |

It is true that SE hasn't written these books as a "good vs. evil" kind of thing but, that doesn't stop it appearing, it is discussed many times in the series. It would be unwise to write of the concepts.

From the only real dialogue we have of the FA it seams as if they are completely obsessed with balance, we also know from flash backs that they used to have huge cities. Its plausable that they became missguided, after all if your completely obsessed with killing everyone you don't make huge cities, you do something more like the imass did.

I think the key to this problem is what happened to the FA. I'm pretty sure they wern't wiped out by others as we would have had some sort of reference to this. It seams they simply disappared. Prehaps they are waiting for the right time to return or prehaps they are in another realm?

[Locke Reaper]

The thing with balance is that it is a constant shift between creation and destruction. The FA could have destroyed themselves or there own cities. They build a huge city and then destroy it. Only breed until they have a stable population, each death signals a new birth.

add to the mix someone destroying your people then the death rate is faster than the birth rate. Which in the end means you end up declining.

there is a reason behind the dissapearance of the FA other than just packing their bags one morning. Everything in SE's worlds seem to have a counter force so i expect we are still going to see who or what chased the FA away.

[Aptorian]

If the visions Ruin showed Kettle is any evidence, I'd hassard the guess that the Andii and Edur had a large role to play in the disappearence of the FA.

More precisely the big piles of dead FA could be a clue... *hint hint*

[Obdigore]

Didn't Ruin say he whooped up on the FA, and when he got imprisioned, some other Draco-taken's moved in and finished the job, since they are notoriously hard to kill, and you need to be as powerful as a dragon to do it? Someone reread MT and tell me...

[vaiski]

Yeah Ruin said that, and he also said that there are places where FA remain - though mostly imprisoned - and in some of those places the FA are worshipped by mortals.

[Kage-za]

The continent of Assail, perhaps?

One thing about Wu is that most of the races seem to worship a number of gods/ascendants. Thus I'm skeptical that Kil is THE god of the FA.

[Aptorian]

Kage-za;134459 said:

The continent of Assail, perhaps?

One thing about Wu is that most of the races seem to worship a number of gods/ascendants. Thus I'm skeptical that Kil is THE god of the FA.

You are talking about the younger races.

KCCM, Jaghut, T'lan Imass don't worship anything since many of their own are as powerfull as an ascendant. We haven't heard if the TTT or FA actually worshipped a deity, but if Killy is FA's mother I think she was just that, a mother noting more.

They'd probably try and kill her if they thought that would bring balance.