[Dolorous Menhir]

Presumably they were captured by the Edur somehow. I don't think becoming a slave to the Edur is a punishment for indebtedness, since there were Letherii slaves who were not indebted (notably Feather Witch). Seren Padec was one of the few Letherii with permission to enter Edur lands, so perhaps the Edur take all trespassing humans as slaves.

Also, I think Feather Witch was born to slaves of the Edur, so the human slave population is self-sustaining and perhaps even growing. Though Udinaas was captured at some point if I remember correctly, and had previously been a "free" Letherii.

[Wry]

I'd always assumed they'd been taken by the edur in slave raids, i don't know why, i just seemed to fit with the warlike semibarbaric edur.

[tiam]

i thought that the edur just captured tresspassers. Like with Udinaas. when he was captured he was on a raid into edur lands. Youve got to assume that Letherii raided Edur lands and were captured. Also theres 60000 letherii in trulls village and only 20000 Edur so i an only assume that around 20000 slaves have been captured and the rest were simply born there and had more children carrying on the cycle.

I dont think the Edur would raid Lether for slaves otherwise they would be at war at the beginning of MT. I believe that private investers and such were lured by the resources of the Edur. They were arrogant and captured.

[Aptorian]

tiam;131099 said:

i thought that the edur just captured tresspassers. Like with Udinaas. when he was captured he was on a raid into edur lands. Youve got to assume that Letherii raided Edur lands and were captured. Also theres 60000 letherii in trulls village and only 20000 Edur so i an only assume that around 20000 slaves have been captured and the rest were simply born there and had more children carrying on the cycle.

I dont think the Edur would raid Lether for slaves otherwise they would be at war at the beginning of MT. I believe that private investers and such were lured by the resources of the Edur. They were arrogant and captured.

Tiam do you remember the page you found the numbers of the edur and letherii on?

[bwgan]

Yes that's right. Just rereading and Udi talks to FW about freedom for her - which she has never known. IIRC he mentions that being born indebted means he was never really free anyway...or something like that...will go and try and find a page ref now...

[bwgan]

Found it page 355 in the book I have which is the one with the purple cover (what??) and the frankly rather wierd looking Edur - Seren said THEY were good looking - strange woman ...anyway

'If you do that, Feather Witch, you will destroy your only chance.'
'My only chance? What chance?'
'Freedom.'
Her face twisted. 'And with that you would purchase my silence? You are foolish, Indebted. I was born a slave. I have none of your memories to haunt me --'
'My memories? Feather Witch, my memory of freedom is as an Indebted trapped in a kingdom where even death offers no absolution. My memory is my father's memory, and would have been my children's memory.....' etc

On page 24 there is a description of how Udi was captured, 13 years before as a young sailor. They had been whaling in Beneda waters. So I had always assumed the Edur only capture trespassers, hence Seren's safe passage.

Seren is Welsh for star btw :cool: ...mind you pedac is short for Production Engineering Design and Control :eek: , so I doubt we can read too much into that

[tiam]

Apt;131106 said:

Tiam do you remember the page you found the numbers of the edur and letherii on?

Errrr no sorry at the beginning when trull enters his village. He talks about how the Letherii call villages like this cities. He then goes on to say that there are 20000 Edur and three times that much letherii

[bwgan]

tiam;131394 said:

Errrr no sorry at the beginning when trull enters his village. He talks about how the Letherii call villages like this cities. He then goes on to say that there are 20000 Edur and three times that much letherii

Page 17

'...- a village it had been at birth, thus a village it would always be, no matter that almost twenty thousand Edur and thrice that number of Letherii now resided within it.'

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

It is interesting that a kingdom as aggresive as lether would allow its citizens to be taken as slaves, regardless of the circumstances. Especially if they were indebted - an indebted taken by the Edur would never have an opportunity to repay any of their debt, so it would have to be written off as a loss when they were enslaved. Not something I think the Letherii would be ok with. You would think they would at least demand monetary compensation for anyone taken as a slave.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

KaL;131581 said:

I'm pretty sure they acknowledge the monatary loss, and that's it, it mentions somewhere that only someone like Queen Janell or other nobles could absorb the loss of so many indebteds for the harvest.

That's referring to the indebted that are killed in retribution for poaching on the seal breeding grounds. I don't believe any mention is ever made of there being an issue about the slaves.

[tiam]

I understand what you mean but think about it letherii poach in Edur lands and get captured have children etc. BUt letherii only live for around 70 years (ish) so its my uderstanding that becuae the Edur are so long lived over the years of letherii raids etc they have amassed a huge slave population due to allowing them to breed and seen as the ltherii are so desperate they would constantly try to raid Edur lands every genration atleast. So say Udinaas had 200 ppl on his boat and that happend every 5 years. Add that to the ability to breed and 60000 Letherii is quite reasonable

[Wry]

Actually that makes perfect sense, case closed i think

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

That all makes sense, but think about the Letherii method of dealing with other people. giving gifts, then later demanding payment, charging interest for it, etc. Anything to make a profit or bring someone under their control. It just seems like they would jump at the opportunity to demand payment for the slaves. If they demand money in cases where they aren't really owed any, it only stands to reason that they would really insist on getting paid in a situation where they might actually have a legitimate claim to recompensation.

[Dark Mac]

I'd say that the real issue was that the Letherii weren't prepared to fight a war with the Edur just then, since they were engaged in wars with other nations. They were just biding their time until they had the strength to attack the Edur.

[lopper]

this seems to be a favourite novel among the readers but i never really got into it so i havent read it. (i have to make sure i put in periods bare with me) so i am wondering does this novel have a real tie in with the previous novels? i have just loved the stories so far and i wasnt really sure if i wanted to go back way in time for nothing?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, I don't want to give you any major spoilers, but three significant connections to the other novels are:

Trull Sengar - who, obviously, was in HoC, and plays a big role in BH. You need to read MT to understand where he is coming from. Need to.

Kellanved - he is mentioned in MT, he's pretty much the only Malazan who is.

The Crimson Guard - play a big part in MT, which is a nice link to GotM where they last appeared in any major role.

But MT is worth reading on its own merits, I think it would even work as a stand-alone novel, independent of the series.

[bwgan]

lopper;132129 said:

this seems to be a favourite novel among the readers but i never really got into it so i havent read it. (i have to make sure i put in periods bare with me) so i am wondering does this novel have a real tie in with the previous novels? i have just loved the stories so far and i wasnt really sure if i wanted to go back way in time for nothing?

I am in the middle of a reread of MT, and as always with SE, I get so much more each time I read the books. This time I read them all, went straight to BH and came back to MT..it works that way too. But really don't give up on it - it is fantastic and worth it for Tehol & Bugg if nothing else!