[Dolorous Menhir]

GardenGnome;124310 said:

Ah, my bad. I thought he said just KCCM. Indeed, there is no proof of living KCCM anywhere, as far as I know.

Good point. I agree. Maybe people should stop suggesting the companions are KCCM.

[polishgenius]

Dolorous Menhir;124381 said:

Good point. I agree. Maybe people should stop suggesting the companions are KCCM.

Why? Like someone above said, they don't have to be from Lether. He's just arrived back from being away, after all.

Unless the point being made is that there's no proof of living KCCM anywhere in the world, which isn't true as I can think of at least three (or four?). Karsa killed one, and the others killed Ganath.

[Aptorian]

polishgenius;124388 said:

Why? Like someone above said, they don't have to be from Lether. He's just arrived back from being away, after all.

Unless the point being made is that there's no proof of living KCCM anywhere in the world, which isn't true as I can think of at least three (or four?). Karsa killed one, and the others killed Ganath.

You are mixing K'Chain Naruk with K'Chain Che'malle. I think the Ganath killers were ment to be Naruk because they were using tools, the one in the fort Karsa fought was a Chemalle... and finally the ones in the keeps are as of yet unknown. But we don't know of any active Chemalle, we only know that the Naruk are back. The one Karsa punched to death had been imprisoned for what could be hundreds of thousands of years.

[The .303 bookworm]

A Seguleh perhaps? Greymane maybe?

[Tes'thesula]

i thought the one karsa beat down was nahruk...stubby tail, machines in the stomach and all that jazz

[amphibian]

Tes said:

i thought the one karsa beat down was nahruk...stubby tail, machines in the stomach and all that jazz

I concur.

The interesting thing was that there was only one in the pit. Where were the skykeep and the rest of them?

Was it a KCNR shorning?

[The .303 bookworm]

amphibian;124430 said:

I concur.

The interesting thing was that there was only one in the pit. Where were the skykeep and the rest of them?

Was it a KCNR shorning?

I thought he beat a Stub-tail, with the Nahruk being the ones in the Imperial warren and Sky-fortresses (That beat the Jaghut to death)?

[The Rope]

where did ganath get killed? i dont remember that...

[The .303 bookworm]

The Rope;124475 said:

where did ganath get killed? i dont remember that...

Who's Gannath?
Do you mean the Jaghut female Paran encountered in TBH?

[Dragnipurake]

the description of the fortress, or at least the pit itself that karsa descends before he meets the nah'ruk sounded like it was a sky keep (honey combed tomb, several tiers of windows and chambers, etc) similar to the one that icarium and mappo find sorrit in (which was where ganath was killed). i wonder why there is only one of those reptiles still there though.

[Clip]

the rest fled, perhaps?
mabye to get away from whatever brought the sky keep down
or they were killed and eaten

[Dolorous Menhir]

Short-tails and K'Chain Nah'ruk (KCNR) are two names for the same thing. They were the evolutionary ancestors of the KCCM, and went extinct. They were later resurrected by the Matrons (the implication being that the KCCM had genetic manipulation technology), used as slaves, and eventually rebelled. This history is from Kallor's narration in MoI, so trust it as much as you trust him, but I don't see how it would aid him to have lied about these details. Of course, he might just be plain wrong in the first place.

Karsa fought and killed a lone KCNR in the keep in BH, and he did it in style.

Ganath was ambushed and killed by KCNR at the end of BH (she reveals to the reader that they are aspected to order, and the KCCM are chaos-linked, as she lies dying).

Which of the two races inhabit the sky keeps seen in the Imperial Warren is unknown. I think Cotillion says they are KCCM, but we're not sure if he even knows that the KCNR exist, he may just be assuming that "sky keeps = KCCM" because he doesn't know any better. And no-one looked inside.

The reason I keep insisting the two companions from the RG prologue are not KCCM/NR is simple. Red Mask appears to be of a humanoid race. I seriously doubt that any KCCM or KCNR would ever travel with or even talk to members of another race, probably a vanilla human. All the evidence that we've seen of the reptilian races suggests that they simply fight everything and everyone. They don't talk, or interact in any other way, with other races.

Caveats - the KCCM we've seen so far have been dead (MT), undead (MoI, the K'ell Hunters) or insane (Pannion's Matron).

We've got two examples of KCNR behaviour, and they are
a) fighting Karsa, getting killed
fighting Ganath, winning swiftly.

No opportunity for much dialogue in either case there. But I really really don't think we'll see the KCNR use dialogue of deal with other characters. They're alien, genuinely so. They're not like the other races, which are pretty much just humans with different bodies. I think of them as dinosaurs.

[Tiger_sword]

technically advanced dinosaurs!!!

I think that they probably communicate in a way that other species cannot see. We haven't even seen two KC in the same scene (except in MoI where they were undead and probably wouldn't talk much and the end of BH where the action is too quick to see any hint of communication.

It would seam as if the matrons can communicate with other species though

[polishgenius]

I think the KC probably could communicate, they just didn't bother with much else outside of themselves. Considering they're probably the most advanced civilisations we've had evidence of thus far, they can't be stupid enough to not be able to work it out if they have to.

[Dolorous Menhir]

So would that imply that all KCNR have Jaghut-length life expectancies?

Or did Karsa take out a KCNR bigshot, an ascendant.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Oooh, good point. Perhaps they had a limited beachhead presence - was the fort Karsa fought it in coastal?

[Abyss]

Imnsho, the city/fort was not KN/KC, but that the one Karsa fought was imprisoned under it by NOs.

Much has been made of the many, many cycles of civilization on 7C, so no reason it would be KC/KN moreso than just another human civilization, and the NOs have shown a definite penchant for binding powerful beings in place.

As usual, i don't get that... if you're powerful enough to force a creature to stay immobile in one place for a few thousand years, it seems to follow that you should be powerful enough to kill it.

- Abyss, reapplying suspension of disbelief.