[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

....."The Moranth alliance of 1156 marked a fundamental change in the science of of warfare for the Malazan Imperium, which would prove efficacious in the short term." (italics mine)

This passage from the prologue to chapter 1 could be some major foreshadowing. It might only mean that the alliance is eventually not as effective, but it might also mean that the Moranth or their munitions could end up being used against the Malazans with serious consequences.

So far, we haven't seen a point in the books where the new science of warfare (Moranth munitions) is no longer efficacious, which means this point is yet to come. I wonder if this simply means that they will lose their effectivness, or will possibly be turned against the Malazans and contribute to the downfall of the empire?

[GardenGnome]

I can't really post my views on this, since this is in the GOTM forum, and I'd quote from MoI to bring my point across.

However, I don't think they necesarily will be used against the Malazan, but that they will not be allies of the Malazan in the long run.

[Folken]

I'm moving this to RG. Next time please create the thread in RG or BH if you wish to discuss the entire series to date:)

[philospher77]

raymondluxuryyacht;112246 said:

....."The Moranth alliance of 1156 marked a fundamental change in the science of of warfare for the Malazan Imperium, which would prove efficacious in the short term." (italics mine)

This passage from the prologue to chapter 1 could be some major foreshadowing. It might only mean that the alliance is eventually not as effective, but it might also mean that the Moranth or their munitions could end up being used against the Malazans with serious consequences.

Since the quote is talking about the science of war, I'd take the mundane view that the Moranth alliance brought in new weapons and tactics that worked really well, until counters were discovered for them. And I'd say most of the change is the use of the munitions. For a real life analog, it seems like the munitions are to Wu as machine guns were to WWI. At the time, they dominated the field, but by WWII, the tank had drastically lessened the machine gun's power. The same thing is going to happen to the Moranth munitions.

[tiam]

I thoguht it meant that the allaince would prove efficcious in the short term. We dont know the situation on Genabackis seen as Dujek left. Im not sure if its an imperial continent anymore so likely the allince with the moranth is off

[tjc52]

I agree, that the "short term" bit is more a reflection on the relations of the empire with the Moranth, than on the actual use of munitions. Afterall, once the moranth and the empire go their separate ways, then the empire has no munitions, as it doesn't seem to be able to make its own. Given that Dujeks army was on 7C without any moranth, it would seem to me that the moranth, intorspective as they are, are only interetsed in genabackis, and wont aid the empire on other continents.

[tiam]

Actually Dujek had a gold moranth with him who are there elite. People speculate that they are mages but maybe there just explosive experts

[Abyss]

In HoC, Leoman came up with a flaming oil variation on munitions in his raids on the army.

Magic can counter munitions to an extent, it's just that any idiot can throw a sharper while mages are less prolific.

In DG on the Chain of Dogs the primary use for the munitions was in ambush and sapping, not combat.

We've seen Fiddler and others use them as weapons to great effect. I suppose the point is that once an effective enemy knows to expect the munitions, they can take steps to counter them to the extent possible, ie: spread out troops troops, guard the mages better, target sappers.

- Abyss, *****BOOM!*****

[GardenGnome]

If I recall correctly, which I'm sure I do, Moranth munitions doesn't mix well with magic. Nothing explicit is said of what happens, other than a really big "boom!"... Think GotM, when Hedge flings one at Mammot/Reast, and how Quick Ben then pulls him and Derudan into a warren to save them from the magic onslaught that followed.

Anyhow, now that I can post here: In MoI, it is said that Humbrall Taur (and thus, all the Whiteface Barghast) was forced to accept the Moranth as distant cousins, after the older spirits and/or first spirits were released. Further, Cafal said that the Barghast would soon leave Genabackis and again travel the seas. These two things would point at a rather soon departure of the Barghast/Moranth - to where, we do now know.

However, the Morant were at some point allies/friends of the Edur (presumably after the original Barghast again settled on land), whilst the original Barghast had fought the "grey-skinned demons" while at sea. This could point at an entirely different chain of events to follow, and even a new schism amongst the reunited Barghast/Moranth. How will they react when meeting the Edur? Will the old Barghast fight, while the Moranth will again become Edur allies? Or will the Moranth turn away from the Edur, seeing them as fallen from grace?

In any event, I think the future of the Moranth, and thus the Moranth munitions (they had munitions before the Moranth, just vastly less potent - atleast, that is my understanding), are in some way tied to the Barghast, and that they will part ways with the empire. Then again, in DH Fiddler is given a pack of Moranth munitions by the Trygalle Trading Guild, said to be purchased in "the blue city". I chose to interpret this as Darujhistan (because of the green-blue gas flames), which again would mean that Moranth munitions is available to a greater audience than just the Malazans. Therefore, the effectiveness of Moranth munition will be less profound, when both sides have access to them.

[BridgeBurner]

I think the quote is more related to the ties between the Moranth and the Malazan Empire incorporating their munitions in their war tactics.

In this context, Short term would mean for as long as the Malazans can get a hold on the munitions, and we know that as of MoI, the alliance between the Moranth and the Malazan Empire is already as good as gone. They still ally with Dujek, but I don't think they see him as a representative of the Empire anymore.

Regarding the shortage of Moranth munitions, and Fiddler getting sent some (courtesy of Whiskeyjack or QB), I am very sure that I read somewhere that the BB would never be short of them if they wanted to get them. It must be somewhere in MoI where Whiskeyjack is talking to Black Moranth.

[Obdigore]

I would assume that the Malazans were smart enough to figure out how to make the munitions... but once people know about them, they know how to counter them... and I dont think the Malazans would want anyone else to know... so Laseen might have one of her panics and kill everyone who knows how to make one, thereby removing them from any war, unless you fight the moranth.

And, as to the magic side, moranth munitions are attracted to warrens... and they destroy wards and whatnot (as said in GOTM)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Jen said:

I'm moving this to RG. Next time please create the thread in RG or BH if you wish to discuss the entire series to date:)

Thanks. wasn't quite sure where to put it, since the quote came from GotM, but the discussion was the whole series. Maybe there should be a forum for threads that aren't book specific and are just a discussion of the series as a whole?

[Dolorous Menhir]

raymondluxuryyacht;113092 said:

Maybe there should be a forum for threads that aren't book specific and are just a discussion of the series as a whole?

That's what the this forum is for. No need to make things more complicated.

[philospher77]

Dolorous Menhir;113129 said:

That's what the this forum is for. No need to make things more complicated.

Although I have to admit, I was wondering what kind of series spoilers someone had managed to find in the prologue of Reaper's Gale. I was a little bit disappointed to find out that it was a thread that had been moved.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

philospher77;113601 said:

Although I have to admit, I was wondering what kind of series spoilers someone had managed to find in the prologue of Reaper's Gale. I was a little bit disappointed to find out that it was a thread that had been moved.

Sorry for the letdown. I guess i could make up some spoilers for you. karsa and Icarium realize they are soulmates and retire to a sunny beach to write poetry to one another and play with each other's hair. It's the truth.

[Obdigore]

Witness!

There one was a man from nantukit....

[Abyss]

Technically, that should read "There once was a Moranth from Nantukit..."

- Abyss, on-topic against all odds.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

GardenGnome;112913 said:

(they had munitions before the Moranth, just vastly less potent - atleast, that is my understanding)

Is this true? It says in GotM that before the MOranth alliance, the sappers were basically just engineers. I don't remember it saying anywhere that Malazans had munitions before the hooked up with the Moranth. I could be wrong though.

[Sir Thursday]

That 'thus far' bit tagged on the end means we might meet someone else who has them...maybe on Assail, which could explain how the Tyrants there are so powerful. Interesting

Sir Thursday