[Dolorous Menhir]

That's true, List's spirit guide was described in that way.

But there seems to be a short-hand in the books. If SE wants to describe Jaghut, he mentions tusks. If he is dealing with FA, he mentions multiple joints.

The spirit guide is the only case of a Jaghut being described that way.

Also, Kilmandaros was not described as having tusks.

[Dinivan]

Yeah Kil has naught to do with Jaghuts, that's clear I think. But the point is that multiple joints doesn't automatically mean FA.

Im more in line with Orfantal and with what Illy said about the 'earth-bound' bit - it ruled FA out for me at once. I think she really has something to do with the Toblakai, witch would fit in neatly with the 'your children are lost' comment. The thingy about throwing all ursurpers out of KE seems to me like a thing Karsa would have done. Her whole massive shape suggests more Toblakai than FA to me.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think earth-bound just meant "unable to fly" - that was the context in which it was used.

I don't think it had any deeper meaning about Kilmandaros being an earth spirit or goddess or having the aspect of earth.

[Orfantal]

i agree that there may not have been any greater meaning behind the phrase "earth bound", however I think the strongest argument form a link between the Toblakai and Kil is the physical and emotional similarlity. Kil has such a physical presence that she reminds me of them and her nature seems far more similar to theirs thatn to the restrained and controlled FA. Toblakai seem tempestuous, strong tempered and yet at the same time steadfast, loyal and enduring. She just gives the same kind of impression, which may well mean nothing of course. Perhaps if the FA are her children she considers them lost becayuse they aren't like her. Maybe the one point we are glossing over is the fact that she clearly believes her children would do her bidding. Whether that's the FA or Toblakai... it represents a pretty damn strong force!

[Coldnight]

Jaghut being Kilmandaros' children are out of question. No matter the amount of joints . She was trying to threaten Gothos with her children. It didn't sound like she was threatenig him with his own kin .

[Morgoth]

To build on Hetan's clarifications here.. Kil is ulti-jointed, the TT are not.. IT seems highly unlikely that her children would be so obviously different physically from her.

[Illuyankas]

Kilmandaros and the FA are both multi-jointed, pale-skinned and break things with their arms. CALM SMASH!

[Orfantal]

Yeah yeah alright! There are certainly physical similarities between Kil and the FA, but they don't appear to be similar in personality/outlook, and in my somewhat less than humble opinion the Toblakai are a better fit in that area. However I'll concede that makes FA most likelies with Toblakai only possibles. I would love to know more about the evolution of the various races though. Particularly the Eres and who they became, and where Jaghut and Toblakai came from. Did the Imass evolve from Eres and then onto human.. if so why from tall and thin to short and stocky then back to taller and thinner?

[Abyss]

The first read of her description had me thinking of the Eres, but the threat to Gothos re her children suggested, to me, Imass or FA, which would be more of a threat to a Jaghut.

Also interesting was the similarity in description of Kil's colouring, like Mael's in the MT prologue, with one colour (red/blue) on the extremities fading up the limbs.

As for her aspect, it does seem the EGs do not have such 'refined' aspects as the pantheon in 'modern' times. I suspect she's something along the lines of earth, as Mael was sea and Sister of Cold Nights was, well, cold, or night or something . Afaik, we've never known Draconus's original aspect, nor Krul's tho he seems to be aspected to dreams now. So i'd go with something simple like earth, motherhood or protection thereof.

- Abyss, yo momma.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Eres - Imass - Human is the known chain. I'm not sure why you say

Orfantal;109660 said:

if so why from tall and thin to short and stocky then back to taller and thinner?

since the Eres are clearly the most primitive of the three, I don't know if they were taller and thinner? And just because we are talking about moving up an evolutionary chain doesn't mean height has to steadily increase with each successive species.

The origins of the TTT and the Jaghut are not known, just so with the FA. The KCCM are held to have come from another realm, but it's confirmed by Serenity's words to a Kris'nan that the FA are native to Malazworld. As are the Jaghut, a race which seems to have fallen into enslavement under the KCCM, but it's unknown whether they pre-dated them, and we also can't rule out some KCCM genetic-engineering on the Jaghut, which seems to have been a pursuit of theirs (recreation of the KCNR).

[Illuyankas]

I think the red of Kilmandy's arms is just blood and bruising from the damage she dealt herself beating the dragons to pieces, not a skin colour thing.

[Orfantal]

Dolorous Menhir;109678 said:

Eres - Imass - Human is the known chain. I'm not sure why you say



since the Eres are clearly the most primitive of the three, I don't know if they were taller and thinner? And just because we are talking about moving up an evolutionary chain doesn't mean height has to steadily increase with each successive species.

The origins of the TTT and the Jaghut are not known, just so with the FA. The KCCM are held to have come from another realm, but it's confirmed by Serenity's words to a Kris'nan that the FA are native to Malazworld. As are the Jaghut, a race which seems to have fallen into enslavement under the KCCM, but it's unknown whether they pre-dated them, and we also can't rule out some KCCM genetic-engineering on the Jaghut, which seems to have been a pursuit of theirs (recreation of the KCNR).

Well certainly the assumed chain but we don't necessarily know that the Eres became the Imass in the way that we do the Imass becoming human. I believe that from Imass lips we know that the Eres predated them and were known as a different race, in the Imass view the first race, given that the Imass certainly knew the Jaghut, FA, and TTT that's an interesting distinction.

I'm certain that the descriptions of the Eres indicated they were very tall, and this from L'oric's point of view, and he's not short himself. Seems a strange trend to move shorter then taller again. The development from the primitive imass to human seems reasonable .. as would that from the Eres to something else.. but the movement between the three seems unusual.

[Onos]

I think it is pretty clear that the Eres became the Imass then became human. Evolution doenst continue on in a straight line.... Based on that 100,000 years from now will humans be 9 feet tall and have brains the size of microwaves? Probably not.

During the Eres times the climates seemed warmer... (hence tall and thin to keep cool) Imass times things had gotten quite cold. (short and stocky far better to keep in warmth) Also Imass are more 'robuste' for their hard fighting lifestyle. Humans are generally smarter but physically more degenerate. (weaker)

It was always my understanding that the TTT were decendants of the Imass. (same as the Barghast were also their decendants) Is there any evidence that contadicts the TTT not being children of the Imass?

Either way about the last point, at the time of this prologue i dont thing there were any TTT as we know them and if there were any they were probably giant lumbering packs of muscle with brains the size of large walnuts. (hmmm their greater hight could MAYBE imply they decended from the Eres as well, but sticking with the Imass decent unless someone has hard proof to the contrary.)

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think it's traditional to throw in Bellurdan's claim that TTT have Jaghut descent at this point, and make everyone scratch their heads for a while before dismissing it as a GotMism.

[Illuyankas]

I don't have a problem with the TTT coming from Jaghut descent, whether they're a Jaghut/something hybrid race, created by some entity from Jaghut stock, or something entirely different.

[Orfantal]

I think the early books left the impression, the Bellurdan quote aside, that the TTT weren't as elder as the Imass or Jaghut etc, but the later books have revealed that they do indeed appear to have been around for a long time. They were around to breed with Jaghut to create the Jhag, accompany the Imass onto the seas pre ritual and contribute to the Barghast, Trell, Teblor, Fenn and Tarthenal, the first three of which are included in the Elder Races section of the Glossary for TBH. They also appear to have had an advanced civilisation before dismantling it at some point.

I'm still not so convinced about the Eres - Imass - Humans route. I agree that evolution doesn't move in straight lines but the climate argument seems a red herring. Yes it was colder when the Imass were around but wasn't this down to the Jaghut defense against them and so not trait forming.

[Onos]

More dumb questions:
A) Do we know for certain that Jaghut + TTT = Jahg? i have been searching for such clues in last reread.
Do we know it was TTT and Imass pre ritual? I know there is that scene of dead imass like creatures and dead TTT fighting things, but do we know for sure what was going on there?
C)Did Imass become Barghast or TTT become Barghast? or Neither or Both?
D)I dont think we have any indication when the TTT had that CIV? Before the time of their Edur wars?
E) What was the time line of the Edur wars? After most of the Jaghut wars i would assume.
F) Confirming that the TTT are not a founding race. Is this an error, or if not i would have to assume they came after the Imass, and i think we have mostly ruled out the other 3 races leading to the TTT.

How long were the Jaghut around making things cold? thousands of years? By ritual time the Imass had dealt with the Jaghuts for a while so not hard to imagine them having their physiology changed. What did SE do for a living again before writing?