[Sir Thursday]

Throughout the series Kilmandaros has been mentioned as an EG. This would seem to preclude her being the goddess of the FA. However, if she was the goddess representing the justice that the FA supposedly uphold, then Gothos' comments and her physical resemblance to the FA could be explained without questioning her EG status. Perhaps the FA were created in her image to mete out justice on Wu.

This would also serve to explain why it is her that finishes off Scabby - she is providing the justice that is her speciality given her role in the Pantheon.

Sir Thursday

[Enaglio]

It makes sense that Kilmandaros is the Goddess of the FA. The FA are an Elder race and she is an Elder goddess. Seems to fit.

[Sir Thursday]

Enaglio;109462 said:

It makes sense that Kilmandaros is the Goddess of the FA. The FA are an Elder race and she is an Elder goddess. Seems to fit.

I'm not sure that it does given Edgewalker's definition of an Elder God as an elemental force. Given that we have not seen anything resembling an Elder God for the Jaghut, the K'chain Che'malle or the T'lan Imass, I don't think it is reasonable to give her the title of Elder Goddess of the FA. There is no way to reconcile her eldergodliness with being an ascendant FA. On the other hand, I am suggesting that she was perhaps the creator of the Fork'rul Assail so that they could do her job for her...I suppose you could take that as being the god of the FA...

Sir Thursday

[Illuyankas]

Well, seeing as MD did the same for the Andii, and FL for the Liosan, Kilmandaros being both an Elder Goddess and the Goddess/Creator of the FA seems a safe bet.

[Sir Thursday]

Maybe I'm just arguing a point of semantics...but I always felt that the gods didn't represent races as such, but rather the concepts they stand for. So Mother Dark = Darkness (duh) and Father Light = Light (double duh). Following this trend, it would seem Kilmandaros = Justice...

Sir Thursday

[Orfantal]

Sorry don't see Justice as an elemental force really. I still see Kil as a possible earth goddess.. she just sounds so meaty and physical and solid. There's no suggestion yet that the FA worship her, only that she has children of some sort. These don't have to be a race as such...could be beasts or anything, but the multijointed limbs seems a strong coincidence, haven't heard of them with anyone else. However her obvious and easily stirred anger is pretty much the antithesis of the FA studied calm and cold pursuit of justice. In character I see the Toblakai as being far more in her mould.

[Aptorian]

Sir Thursday;109470 said:

Maybe I'm just arguing a point of semantics...but I always felt that the gods didn't represent races as such, but rather the concepts they stand for. So Mother Dark = Darkness (duh) and Father Light = Light (double duh). Following this trend, it would seem Kilmandaros = Justice...

Sir Thursday

It is of course possible but that would imply certain things.

Are all EGs necessarily connected to an element? I thought it was just implied that Edgewalker was such a creature. It hasn't been implied that K'rul, nightchill or Draconus served any special nature, that you would expect from an element. On the other hand Osserc and Mael naturally serve the elements of air and water... they would seem to fit the bill, if only in work description.

Is Justice an elemental force? If it is then there would have to be it's oposite, injustice, pretty much implying that evil and good also exists as metaphysical entities. Something SE has shown a great distaste for in fantasy.

I still don't like the idea of Kilmandaros children being FA. A few extra joint isn't enough proof if you ask me. Besides the fluid motion mentioned, she doesn't seem to have the deadly, flowing elegance of an FA. Jaghut and several demons have also been said to hold extra joints. When I first read of her description I actually thought she was a Matron of the KCCM, although she seemed far to big compared to the dragons. Then I thought she was a EG of the Dragons, but given her lack of wings that sounded a bit hollow.

Stick it under crazy theories but if people say she's an FA EG then I say she's a KCCM EG ... they seem pretty lost to me.

[pippin]

Kilmandaros not only has a different temperament from the FA, her abilities (fighting) do not seem to be a lot better than a single FA. Also the FA do not seem to be the worshiping kind.

[Folken]

Orfantal;109477 said:

Sorry don't see Justice as an elemental force really.

Not agreeing with either suggestions here. Just feel like pointing out a possible error.

In Bonehunters Cottilion, during his conversation with Mappo about the Azath and the Lost Elementals (as he termed them), we find out that even faith, denial could be considered elementals (he was just pointing it out as a possibility not that they are). So Justice, doesn't seem an unlikely elemental force based on Dancer's theory.

[Illuyankas]

@pippin - Neither do the Andii. And Kilmandaros has the skin colour as well as the joints. But, you forget - older things are cruder. Compare the descriptions of Olar Ethil's brutal dragon shape against Rake's sleek form, or the Eres to the Imass to humans. The FA could be a refined, manageable version of Kilmandaros. As for her fighting abilities, she pulled a dragon down from the skies. We have no idea of her full abilities.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas;109489 said:

As for her fighting abilities, she pulled a dragon down from the skies. We have no idea of her full abilities.

Nitpicking here, but she seemed impotent against the flying dragons when we first saw her. Perhaps Mael brought Scabby to the ground, but I don't see how she could have given what we see in the prologue.

I don't understand why people are reluctant to associate the FA with Kilmandaros.

edit: the prologue explicitly says that Kilmandaros is "earth-bound". So I don't think she was pulling any dragons from the sky at any point.

[Illuyankas]

Warrens. And she could have let those three go because she was after Scabby, and those six were in her way. Or those six could have been feral dragons, and therefore weak and stupid compared to the aspected ones, of which those three could have been.

The 'earth-bound' bit is definitely suggesting Elder Goddess of the Earth to me.

[Shield Anvil]

Sir Thursday;109470 said:

Maybe I'm just arguing a point of semantics...but I always felt that the gods didn't represent races as such, but rather the concepts they stand for. So Mother Dark = Darkness (duh) and Father Light = Light (double duh). Following this trend, it would seem Kilmandaros = Justice...

Sir Thursday

not justice I would say, rather it'd be Balance.

"From these places, where they did not dwell, but simply gathered, they set out to achieve balance.?(MT, UK Trade, p.394)"
"But that was yet another tactic aimed at reasserting balance, and it ultimately failed. As did this entire civilization.'(MT, UK Trade, p.394-5)"

[Demon X]

Sir Thursday;109464 said:

I'm not sure that it does given Edgewalker's definition of an Elder God as an elemental force. Given that we have not seen anything resembling an Elder God for the Jaghut, the K'chain Che'malle or the T'lan Imass, I don't think it is reasonable to give her the title of Elder Goddess of the FA. There is no way to reconcile her eldergodliness with being an ascendant FA. On the other hand, I am suggesting that she was perhaps the creator of the Fork'rul Assail so that they could do her job for her...I suppose you could take that as being the god of the FA...

Sir Thursday

I'd say the Images of the God's under the sea near Lether and the names that Byrs Beddict (is that the right one?) had to remember could be the God's of the K'Chain......I dont know why I think this - it just hit me somewhere about the description of them. I'm probably way off though

[Demon X]

Orfantal;109477 said:

Sorry don't see Justice as an elemental force really. I still see Kil as a possible earth goddess.. she just sounds so meaty and physical and solid. There's no suggestion yet that the FA worship her, only that she has children of some sort. These don't have to be a race as such...could be beasts or anything, but the multijointed limbs seems a strong coincidence, haven't heard of them with anyone else. However her obvious and easily stirred anger is pretty much the antithesis of the FA studied calm and cold pursuit of justice. In character I see the Toblakai as being far more in her mould.

But - there has to be balance. and balance is in its self an elemental force. Balance = Justice. I find it more and more possible every time I think about it. And what is the balance between Light and Dark? Shadow!!! Which is exactly where she is in the Prolouge!!

[Dolorous Menhir]

We don't know of any gods of the KCCM. It's been speculated that a species of mindless drones and uberpowerful queens has no use for deities, and I believe that's the case.

[Sir Thursday]

Now that Demon X and Shield Anvil mention it, I prefer Balance to Justice - it removes morality from the concept and expands its influence. The FA are concerned with balance as opposed to justice...so, Kilmandaros, Goddess of Balance?

Sir Thursday

[Sir Thursday]

Dolorous Menhir;109593 said:

We don't know of any gods of the KCCM. It's been speculated that a species of mindless drones and uberpowerful queens has no use for deities, and I believe that's the case.

That argument wouldn't work so well for the KCNR though, would it?

Sir Thursday

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

[Murrin]

For the Nah'ruk the argument was that they were so much involved in science and technology that they would not have gods. It pretty much fits with how Ganath described them.

[Bloodyrazor]

Weren't Jaghut Multi joint-ed aswell, i remeber having read that about the Hand from a god in DG from corporal List (I think that was his name)