[Rat Mentor]

The Bonehunters for me had one major eyes open wide moment, that of the Three Chained Dragons.

Cotillion in conversation with them and Edgewalker awakend to the knowledge of the fact that some Soletaken Eleint are linked to the races.

The Tiste Andii for Anomandaris.
Tiste Liosan for Osserc.
T'lan Imass for Olar Ethil.

Draconus....?

At this point the chained three shrieked at this and claimed how reviled Draconus is, to which the discussion takes another turn..

So what is Draconus crime, in the eyes of the true Eleint?
Could this be one reason to why Rake fought Draconus and so imprison him in Dragonpur?
Could it be that Draconus is linked to another race, say humans?
I wonder if Draconus used the Eleint to bring about the warrens for access to humans. This would make the humans become a player between the races. In the same way that the Imass used the ritual and Silanah to gain power against the Jaghut?

Also...

Cotillion finds out that " a sundered realm is the weakest realm of all! Why do you think the Crippled God is working through it?"

So the Crippled God is working through the warren of Kurald Emurlahn and the Tiste Edur. To negate the CG Kurald Emurlahn would need to be healed. How would that be done?

Also.....

The three chained Dragons have been chained because they were planing to gain the Throne of Shadow. Rake didn't want this (vengeance against the Edur) Destroyed the realm and imprisioned the three to stop them healing Shadow. So is he not responsible for the CG being able to work through Kurald Emurlahn? Scadandari started the sundering by spilling Draconean Blood in the heart of KE, but Rake is impeached by his subsiquent rengeance.

Welcome members thoughts...

[Dark Mac]

Perhaps it was Draconus and not Rake who killed the dragons now residing in Dragnipur.

[Sir Thursday]

Are the dragons that Cotillion sees actually imprisoned in the Shadow Realm? Or are they merely reflections of the true beings actually imprisoned somewhere else?

I am assuming that saying that they are imprisoned in Dragnipur is pure conjecture...

Sir Thursday

[Folken]

The 3 Dragons are imprisoned in KE and not Dragnipur. Rake never killed them, read the conversation again.

You can't lay blame at Rake's feet for the CG using KE. The warren was shattered ages before the Fall and subsiquent chaining of the Crippled God. Rake had no way of knowing such an event would take place. He did what he thought was just I suppose.

Humans did not exist during the time the three dragons where bound in KE. Thus, to answer your question, no. It was something else that have the dragons hating on Draconus so much.

[Abyss]

@SirThurs - Not exactly...

Draconus told Paran that there are dragons amongst those present in the sword's warren while the dead Hounds of Shadow are throwing a fit.

The three bound dragons in Meanas are different dragons.

And we don't know how many were around before Krul had them forge the warrens and then return to SD, or how many weren't involved in the making.

Their anger at Draconus isn't explained - speculation on my part: maybe it has something to do with what he did to put the gate to Mommy D into the sword in the first place.

- Abyss, thinks they mostly just dislike his name.

[Onos]

Eleint holding a thone seems way too powerful. And Rake NOT sitting on the thrown says something for sure about him.

Creating the sword would make most people upset since it can imprision creatures for 'all time' til the die. Not sure how Draconnus used the sword... Rake seems to be pretty reasonable about what he puts in there... if it crosses his path it goes in, but he isnt hunting things down... where Draconnus may have been hunting down Eleint to help with the pulling....

Wish i knew more about the Draconnus Rake argument... that may be a book in itself.

BTW Which bloody dragons are in Dragnipur? I know.. we have no real idea...

P.S have we heard of Eleint having pure eleint children?? Not recently... they dont seem very prolific.

[Abyss]

Is Tiam i.d.'d as the mother of ALL dragons?
Iirc, she is 'mother of dragons', ie, Sukul, Menandore, Sheltie that we know of, plus technically everyone who drank her blood, but not 'all'...i don't think she's taken responsibility for Sorrit, Kalse, et al?

And i'm still wondering at just how the wyval, spawn of dragons that they are, are explained.

- Abyss, not admitting to being the Father of Anything until the test results come in.

[Abyss]

Good use of quote.
Unless Olar has it wrong. I guess i'm just suspicious because the dragons seem (emphasis on 'seem') to predate the Elder Gds, and all the EGs we've seen were human aspected.

So it's a series of assumptions on my part, but one assumes Tiam was humanoid in some fashion or Scabby and Ossi would have had a hell of a logistical challenge getting it on with the dirty ho.


- Abyss, doesn't need diagrams or fanfic explanations, thanks

[tiam]

Do you actually still stick to the thought that to have kids with tiam they must bump uglies? i think as Abyss puts it the 'logistical challenge' makes it impossible for actually mating. I thought it would be more a binding of blood than anything else and not merely a traditionaly breeding pattern.

[Ivan the terrible]

The most interesting point brought up in this thread was Rake refusing to heal KE BY CLAIMING THE THRONE. Unless he has a reason such as avoiding convergence he is equally responsible for upsetting the balance... although while i say this it occurs to me placing the son of darkness on the throne of shadow might really screw things up.

[Rat Mentor]

Ivan - I guess that Rake just dosn't want to have any responsibility for the Edur.

[tiam]

yeh he longs for Silnahs comfort in GOTM. And rake and Silanah only get it on after the drinking of tiams blood. So they were both dragons at this time. Anyway Rake would definitely not heal KE because of either

a) Not wanting a convergence

b)Not wanting it to heal out of spite for the betrayal

c) not willing to give the edur a healed realm at which to recover their ppl from

[Jorram]

Rat Mentor said:

So the Crippled God is working through the warren of Kurald Emurlahn and the Tiste Edur. To negate the CG Kurald Emurlahn would need to be healed. How would that be done?

I thought it said in Bottle's visions that the child of the Eres'al and Trull (was that the soul in the body of Kettle or am I way out there?) would become the means to heal the shattered warren.

[Dinivan]

What do you mean by 'open' ?

If you mean only accessable...I think Silanah used SD in the fight against Raest, so i don't think it was ever that isolated. and whats with the dragons chained in Shadow? Either they weren't forced to fly into SD or they returned.

But i dislike the notion of a warren of chaos entirely. That would mean an ordered form of chaos, which is a contradiction in itself, imo.