[Illuyankas]

If Rake doesn't feed the sword, Chaos will enter Kurald Galain, kill Mother Dark and destroy the universe, basically. Which would suck.

A couple of thoughts I've had: Could the Kaschan ritual be pinning MD in place, stopping her from acting to prevent her demise in some way, and isn't Ruin at some fault for that? It was a combined assault against the KCCM, and 'merely' being imprisoned in an Azath isn't really punishment for destroying the universe. I'm sure someone old still holds a grudge.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The thing I like about karsa is that he's kind of an anti-hero. He has done things that are hard to take, and clearly has some character flaws. It makes him much more interesting than a hero who is perfect and likeable in every way.

[Icarium Kalam]

karsa is in my top 3

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Karsa unlike other characters hasn't grown on me I liked him from the moment we got his point of view. When HoC started I was like what the heck but as I started getting into it I wanted the whole book to be about Karsa which alas it wasn't.

[blackzoid]

For me its the opposite.
I can't stand Karsa and freed of the opening Karsa section, HoC became a brilliant book (although it took a re-read for me to see that. When I first read the book, I unfairly projected my hate for Karsa upon the rest of the book.)

[Ben Adephon Delat]

There's too many scheming characters. Karsa is a change from that and I like that. Sure he's a murderer and a rapist but the book isn't set in the present day, his culture approves of such actions and he seems to have learnt some restraint and possibly regret his actions. I can see why some people wouldn't like him but I do especially when people underestimate him and get proven wrong.

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 19 October 2009 - 04:10 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I have to agree with blackzoid. I really hated the Karsa in HoC, actually thought he was the worse character in the MBotF, and as such on my first read didn't like the book much. With the arrival of Samar Dev in TBH, he became a much deeper character and I sarted to like him more, although I'm not what you would call a Karsa fan.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 19 October 2009 - 04:16 PM

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Worst character goes to Mhybe

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ironically I was never bothered by the Mhybe and never understood all this Mhybe hate. Sure she whines a lot but... put yourself in her shoes, how would you feel?

[blackzoid]

Eh, Karsa is actively planning to destroy civilisation via the act of genocide. Just like the Pannion Domin wanted to do.
As a character he is utterly reprehensible.
(I'm not saying he is a badly written character. SE writes him very well. He is consistant and believable as a character I utterly detest)

[Ben Adephon Delat]

I agree her situation is crappy but she goes on and on. We get it now either gives her less page space since we know when we next see her she'll be whining or have her do something other than whine. You could skip a large percentage of her parts in the book and lose nothing.

blackzoid, on 19 October 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

Eh, Karsa is actively planning to destroy civilisation via the act of genocide. Just like the Pannion Domin wanted to do.
As a character he is utterly reprehensible.
(I'm not saying he is a badly written character. SE writes him very well. He is consistant and believable as a character I utterly detest)

He certainly seems to be planning it but so far as I can see he seems to be realising the futility of his plans. I expect what he vows and what he'll actually do will be quite different.

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 19 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

[blackzoid]

Perhaps, but until he recants this goal, I'll be cheering on any character that gets in his way.

Although I can imagine that if Karsa were to be taken out, it would be by a minor character that Karsa himself underestimated. It would be a nice irony to the way Karsa is frequently underestimated. Maybe Samar herself?

[Ben Adephon Delat]

If anything I expect he'll return to his people and rather than leading them to a war that would insure their annihilation he'll make conquering/enslaving them unpalatable allowing them to live their lives in peace.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 19 October 2009 - 04:44 PM, said:

If anything I expect he'll return to his people and rather than leading them to a war that would insure their annihilation he'll make conquering/enslaving them unpalatable allowing them to live their lives in peace.

I disagree, Karsa Orlong doesn't make idle threats. Or change his mind.

[Abyss]

But it's interesting how notwithstanding his vows, he still gets on a ship to go kill the Edur Emperor, which will of course delay his war on civilization. He's clearly not in a rush.

I like Karsa. I think SE has done one of his most interesting character development lines with him, from reprehensible savage to uncomfortably harsh/accurate voice of reason and avenger of injustice.


- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 19 October 2009 - 05:57 PM, said:

But it's interesting how notwithstanding his vows, he still gets on a ship to go kill the Edur Emperor, which will of course delay his war on civilization. He's clearly not in a rush.

I like Karsa. I think SE has done one of his most interesting character development lines with him, from reprehensible savage to uncomfortably harsh/accurate voice of reason and avenger of injustice.


- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

Oh I never said he was in a rush. Right now I think he is just kind of traveling around learning about the world outside of his homeland, he is putting his war on hold I guess. I don't think he's gonna start his war on civilization in these books. Maybe in the Toblakai trilogy. But do you agree that he fully intends to return home and unite the Teblor and start a war on civilization? Because I don't think anything has happened to change his mind of civilization.

[Ulrik]

I dont like Karsa, but have to say that my opinion of him...grows. If he died in HoC, I wouldnt wept... but, despite I still do not like him much, his characterisation (damn, does that word exist?) is deeper and deeper... Still same stubborn and proud macho, but he learns and when...damned, I wont spoil here (still, those who are at BH, stop reading this post! Really! I warned you! Believe me!) , well, Im lucky that in future he see what he see (we saw) and got jawdropped.
So, not my pain in the a** anymore, just little annoying and deeper than looked.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 October 2009 - 05:33 PM, said:

I disagree, Karsa Orlong doesn't make idle threats. Or change his mind.

He declared the Malazan's his enemy then changed his mind I'd say his vows are somewhat more flexible than you believe.

[Grief]

To be honest, Karsa hasn't really grown on me at all. I disliked him to begin with, and still do. It's just something about him. Perhaps a mixture of overpoweredness(in the things he defeats who judging their(usually much more interesting) and his respective backstory, he shouldn't just be able to defeat in a whirr of underestimation) I find he adds little to the books for me, in fact he takes away from characters with interesting stories which would have been made by him not being there. Here's hoping he gets chopped into tiny pieces.

[Abyss]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 19 October 2009 - 09:34 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 October 2009 - 05:33 PM, said:

I disagree, Karsa Orlong doesn't make idle threats. Or change his mind.

He declared the Malazan's his enemy then changed his mind I'd say his vows are somewhat more flexible than you believe.

Exactly! A large part of Karsa's character is a deconstruction of the whole noble savage thing... the stereotype makes huge sweeping vows then goes to all lengths to the point of personal death to accomplish them. Karsa makes the vows, then learns more and decides to change his mind.

This is why i keep coming back to my theory that in the end he's going to move those Teblor and Tarthenal who follow him to post-plague depopulated 7C and tell the rest of the world to sod off. They can try and invade if they want.

Sure, as of TB he's still holding to hiw vow to destroy the world! or something, but we've seen that there is more to him than just what he feels in the moment.

Grief, on 19 October 2009 - 10:12 PM, said:

To be honest, Karsa hasn't really grown on me at all. I disliked him to begin with, and still do. It's just something about him. Perhaps a mixture of overpoweredness(in the things he defeats who judging their(usually much more interesting) and his respective backstory, he shouldn't just be able to defeat in a whirr of underestimation) I find he adds little to the books for me, in fact he takes away from characters with interesting stories which would have been made by him not being there. Here's hoping he gets chopped into tiny pieces.

A squad of Malazan marines took him down. Mappo knocked him out. Keeper, arguably 'just' an ascended humn, put him down with one punch. The KChain in the keep gave him a serious fight (albeit he did throw his sword away just to make it more fun). He's bad, he may even be the baddest, but he's not unbeatable.

- Abyss, is bad, is bad, cuz bad is bad...