Malazan Empire: Is anyone safe from death in the Malaz books? - Malazan Empire

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Is anyone safe from death in the Malaz books?

#101 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:45 PM

T said:

I think Shurq Elalle could well be safe from death...again. Does that count, her being an undead? And Harlest, too. Just got to say though, I hope Tehol Beddict (of course), Trull Sengar and Mappo don't die. They be some of my favourite characters, and they don't deserve to die IMO.


I bet they are all going to die now that you said that.

I'm a bit concerned about Shurq & Harlest - the magic that made their existence as zombies possible seems peculiar to Lether, and since Gothos' Ritual expired in the course of MT then perhaps the magics that keep their souls attached to their bodies will weaken?
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#102 Guest_T'an Aros_*

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:56 PM

Oh dear. Let's hope they make the most of their newfound pirating career while they can then...

I'm still not sure about Shurq and Harlest - they're zombies as the result of a curse, which I would guess is aspected more to the person who placed it as opposed to the place it was performed...although you're right, the connection with Lether is probably significant. Did we ever find out who actually cursed Shurq? I don't remember. 'twas Gerun Eberict who asked for the curse on Harlest, right? Do the curses last forever or for as long as the person who asked for it is alive, or something else? It is something that is only really mentioned in the world of Lether in the mortal realm, as opposed to the cursing happening amongst the gods (Nightchill, K'rul, Kallor etc). Iirc, that is. Perhaps Bugg has the power then to either prolong the curse or to end it, however they wish. Not that he necessarily would, just he may be the only one they have connections with who possesses the power to do it.

Not sure where exactly that was going. I had a point when I started, I promise.

And nooooo my characters cannot die, although yes I've probably cursed them now. Dammit. I do have a horrible feeling that something will happen to Mappo though...I just hope that it doesn't. :)

Pray with me now...
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#103 User is offline   Called-by-the-Voices 

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 11:31 PM

T said:

Fiddler and Quick may not exactly be grunts themselves, but yeah they do seem to be the foundation for the others. Like it's said in BH, the army recovers its will to fight or whatever and is revived by the presence of soldiers such as Fiddler, Gesler and the like. I think there's a distinct possibility that either Quick or Kalam will die before the end (Kalam is still alive-ish, right?); both of them are world-weary and have seen enough. Whether their death is genuine, though, or another 'drowning', is another matter. Same goes for Fiddler, although technically he's already 'died'.

I also think Cotillion is doomed too, with his excess of compassion (for an ascendant, anyhow) and guilty conscience. However, I wonder if Rhulad will eventually die? Up until now I suppose he is the only character in the books who is truly 'safe' from proper death. I suppose for him to die, the Crippled God must be destroyed, which in the end he's got to be...right? Although in doing so many of our beloved characters will also likely meet their doom in the attempt, probably including all the Mortal Swords and the like.

I think Shurq Elalle could well be safe from death...again. Does that count, her being an undead? And Harlest, too. Just got to say though, I hope Tehol Beddict (of course), Trull Sengar and Mappo don't die. They be some of my favourite characters, and they don't deserve to die IMO.



Fid died? Must've skipped taht part... what in the Hoods' name are you raving about?:confused: :)
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#104 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 11:42 PM

T said:

I'm still not sure about Shurq and Harlest - they're zombies as the result of a curse, which I would guess is aspected more to the person who placed it as opposed to the place it was performed...although you're right, the connection with Lether is probably significant. Did we ever find out who actually cursed Shurq? I don't remember. 'twas Gerun Eberict who asked for the curse on Harlest, right? Do the curses last forever or for as long as the person who asked for it is alive, or something else? It is something that is only really mentioned in the world of Lether in the mortal realm, as opposed to the cursing happening amongst the gods (Nightchill, K'rul, Kallor etc). Iirc, that is.


Death is messed up in Lether. Ghosts are widespread (the overrunning of the Tolls), the Andii wraiths linger, the Edur use magics not in evidence anywhere else (the living heads on the Silanda). These are all due to Gothos' Ritual, and I am in no doubt that the spells that keep Shurq & Harlest undead have the same origin.

Shurq was cursed by a victim of her thefts, I think.
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#105 User is offline   Crump 

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:35 AM

If one of Mappo or Icarium dies, the way things are set up at the moment, they may well both go out in the same scene. Mappo's quest has really been to save the world from Icarium, after all, and from the way things went against Quick Ben and Trull, once Icarium's started hitting things he won't be talked down. I can't see the Jhag standing against him for long. I can see Icarium coming round after a fight to see Mappo's fallen body and realise what he's done.

I can definately see Cotillion biting it.

T'an Aros got exactly what I meant about Quick Ben and Fiddler. I think their presence lends a lot to the 14th in terms of ability and belief, but also to the narrative.
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#106 User is offline   Dancer+ 

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 11:40 AM

Called-by-the-Voices;161101 said:

Fid died? Must've skipped taht part... what in the Hoods' name are you raving about?:confused: :)


I believe T'an Aros was referring to the technicality that all of the bridgeburners are supposedly 'dead', it's far from a foregone technicality, most know that fiddler is alive in the 14th army at least.
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#107 User is offline   Battalion 

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 01:16 PM

yeah, Fid was meant to be dead, that's why he came back as Strings. Like loads of other people he didn't really die, we just saw this one happening.
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#108 Guest_T'an Aros_*

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:13 PM

Dolorous Menhir;161108 said:

Death is messed up in Lether. Ghosts are widespread (the overrunning of the Tolls), the Andii wraiths linger, the Edur use magics not in evidence anywhere else (the living heads on the Silanda). These are all due to Gothos' Ritual, and I am in no doubt that the spells that keep Shurq & Harlest undead have the same origin.

Shurq was cursed by a victim of her thefts, I think.


Oh of course. I totally forgot about it being linked to Gothos' ritual. Wasn't it something to do with there not being a Hold of death too, as the Letherii are more associated with Holds? If so that won't last for long if that Azath became the Hold Of Death (it did do that, didn't it?).

The living heads on the Silanda are strange in that they don't appear to reflect the usual Edur sorcery; they seem more connected with Time magic, as time stands still on the ship doesn't it? Maybe the Eres'al has something to do with it (unlikely, yeah). It's funny how things overlap - the Ice element with things to do with Time, and such. I know, the Time is probably connected to Gothos' ritual, but unlike the other things like the ghosts, this has travelled away from Lether and yet has lasted. So I wonder if it is the object invested with this type of sorcery, which means Shurq and Harlest would actually be fine leaving Lether as the curse was directed at them specifically. That was a little garbled but I've had a long day. =P

The Cult of Dessembrae;161247 said:

I believe T'an Aros was referring to the technicality that all of the bridgeburners are supposedly 'dead', it's far from a foregone technicality, most know that fiddler is alive in the 14th army at least.


Exactly. They all "died" at Coral - on the military records.


Crump;161225 said:

If one of Mappo or Icarium dies, the way things are set up at the moment, they may well both go out in the same scene. Mappo's quest has really been to save the world from Icarium, after all, and from the way things went against Quick Ben and Trull, once Icarium's started hitting things he won't be talked down. I can't see the Jhag standing against him for long. I can see Icarium coming round after a fight to see Mappo's fallen body and realise what he's done.

I can definately see Cotillion biting it.

T'an Aros got exactly what I meant about Quick Ben and Fiddler. I think their presence lends a lot to the 14th in terms of ability and belief, but also to the narrative.


I had that in mind about Icarium too, that he would end up doing something like that to Mappo and then being unable to live with what he has done. And Mappo, I think, would be unable to live with himself if Icarium was killed one way or another - each of them has the other as their only true friend in the world, and after so long I doubt either would be able to live without the other. Either way, I hope Mappo gives the Nameless Ones a good kick up the arse before he goes out.

The 14th would be nothing without Quick Ben and Fiddler. Koryk, Bottle, Smiles and the like are okay, but they definitely couldn't hold it together by themselves.
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#109 User is offline   Onos 

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 07:19 PM

Both Mappo and Icarium dying seems a bit predictable. I vote that Icarium bites it or resigns himself to some sort of 'death' after his memories are restored. Maybe Mappo will find a new friend to wander with. Lord knows Karsa needs someone to keep him out of trouble! "witness i will kill all the Edur", Bang club to side of head. Having trouble finding a way for mappo to live, but i assume SE is smarter than i am.

Shurq could certainly die again though i imagine it wouldnt be curse related. no idea why or how the curse still works, but feel it wont be brought up.
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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:08 PM

Nah Mappo and Karsa wouldn't get on very well...Mappo talks too much. :)

Not to mention Karsa hasn't forgotten Mappo's mace in a hurry :).

Yeah the both of them dying seems kind of predictable, I just think it would be hard for either of them to find another way to live after spending thousands of years in each other's company or however long it's been.
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#111 User is offline   Called-by-the-Voices 

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:08 PM

Crump;161225 said:

If one of Mappo or Icarium dies, the way things are set up at the moment, they may well both go out in the same scene. Mappo's quest has really been to save the world from Icarium, after all, and from the way things went against Quick Ben and Trull, once Icarium's started hitting things he won't be talked down. I can't see the Jhag standing against him for long. I can see Icarium coming round after a fight to see Mappo's fallen body and realise what he's done.

I can definately see Cotillion biting it.

T'an Aros got exactly what I meant about Quick Ben and Fiddler. I think their presence lends a lot to the 14th in terms of ability and belief, but also to the narrative.


Yeah, that's what I had in mind. Iccy killing Mappo in his rage while Mappo tries to prevent him from killing innocents, an then, after realising what he's done, Iccy takes his own lfe...

So sad...
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#112 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 01:13 PM

Called-by-the-Voices;161559 said:

Yeah, that's what I had in mind. Iccy killing Mappo in his rage while Mappo tries to prevent him from killing innocents, an then, after realising what he's done, Iccy takes his own lfe...

So sad...


How's about Mappo killing Iccy in a moment of weakness or sanity. Now that would be a tragic scene...
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#113 User is offline   flea 

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:02 PM

Aptorian;161566 said:

How's about Mappo killing Iccy in a moment of weakness or sanity. Now that would be a tragic scene...


Nooooooo! It makes sense, however.

What will make me sad is when Onrack and Tull break up. Have you noticed how masterful SE is with pairs? As the series progresses the pairings get better and better. For comedy, Tehol and Bugg are awesome and, to me, funnier than any other pair. There is such an elegiac tone, however, to Onrack and Tull.

That same tone was present with Whiskeyjack in MofI, and it permeates Rake's discussions--in other words, I think he's eventual toast.

I don't see Karsa getting knocked off until he becomes world-weary or humble, unless hubris is at fault. Or will he mature enough to understand that all people, if they wish to act in the world, necessarily create their own chains? I think he has a lot of potential and I give SE credit for creating a dynamic character.

I'm not saying that ennui is a necessary precondition for impending death, but there seems to be a pattern--and a natural reaction to a world descending into violent chaos.
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#114 User is offline   Onos 

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:19 PM

Trull and Onrack will be broken up like all good male friends... Onrack meets Kaliva again... then suddenly doesnt have as much time to go for long walks along sea walls, break open statues, or defend thrones.... before you know it Onrack will be 'painting' in dark caves and Trull will be on his own again. :) Onrack has been brough back from death once already, not sure he is meant to die. (not saying he cant or wont, but not sure that will happen)

Mappo Killing Icarium is an interesting twist. I wonder if Mappo's bag could hold Icarium? Probably not but an amusing thought.
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#115 User is offline   flea 

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:37 PM

Definitely easier to haul Imass around--so little flesh to rot.
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#116 User is offline   Battalion 

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 03:26 PM

I don't know about Mappo killing Icarium, but he might push the issue. What if Icarium "kills" Mappo, comes to his sences, sees what he's done -- Mappo on the ground in a pool of blood -- and then kills himself, insane with grief, only for Mappo to return from the brink of death, because the ritual done by Magora has made him immune to death.
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#117 User is offline   flea 

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 08:17 PM

Battalion;162330 said:

I don't know about Mappo killing Icarium, but he might push the issue. What if Icarium "kills" Mappo, comes to his sences, sees what he's done -- Mappo on the ground in a pool of blood -- and then kills himself, insane with grief, only for Mappo to return from the brink of death, because the ritual done by Magora has made him immune to death.
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LOL.

It also sounds like the ending of Romeo and Juliet.
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#118 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 10:05 PM

flea;161580 said:

I don't see Karsa getting knocked off until he becomes world-weary or humble, unless hubris is at fault.

Conan never died.
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#119 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 12:17 AM

amphibian;162429 said:

Conan never died.


No, indeed after having recieved a heartvalve replacement from a pig he rose to become senator of Chrom.
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#120 User is offline   BridgeBurner 

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 06:59 PM

As long as the Bonehunters exist as an army, I think Fiddler, Stormy and Gesler will be around. Note that I left out QB here because IMO he has it coming. Somebody was irritated about Fiddler being a gloomy sergeant because of his moods. However, if you put personal likes/dislikes aside, the same case could be made for Whiskeyjack and his desperation in GotM and MoI...

Speaking of personal likes/dislikes I've seen a lot of characters being mentioned to survive because they are liked or have already died.

Take Tehol for example. This is a man with a mission. I really don't see why he cannot be offed once the Edur Empire has been dealt with.... :p
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