[tiam]

Who would win? (BTW non of the usual 'well if Cotillion snuck up on Darist' or 'well it depends. A straight whod win and why. There in the middle of a field or sutton like that)

[dessembrae]

cotillion.

Darist is obviously talented with a sword but i think cotillion is quicker. He would dance around him licking at Darist with the rope slowly but surely wounding. Until.........well you get my point

[Dolorous Menhir]

You picked a nice pair that we can directly settle from the books.

Andarist was defeated by the Edur party on Drift Avalii.

Cotillion then turned up and blew those same Edur away without the slightest effort.

So Cotillion > Edur raiding party > Darist

=>

Cotillion > Darist

Cotillion beats Darist.

I don't understand why are you asking questions like this though, Abyss doesn't approve and they are a waste of time....

[Thelomen Toblakai]

There not a waste of time, there very interesting and get you thinking.

But Cotillion easy, he is just the man! He could kick most peoples a**

[GardenGnome]

They are a waste of time, IMO. One thing to keep in mind whenever you want to start a thread like this is that everything changes all the time. I'd say DolMen's reasoning doesn't work - first, that is 1 vs many, and not 1 vs 1, and I'd hazard a guess that their different disciplines have different levels of efficiency against groups of people than they do against single targets, and also because just because one character kicks someones arse it doesn't make that same character kick someone elses arse.

Just think Icarium - he kicks everything's arse, and I do mean everything (various D'Ivers, most beasts, several civilizations, azath houses...), but he lost against Trull (well, not really - but it certainly wasn't arsekicking!) - and this was straight after he slaughtered through edur and letherii - and T'lan Imass. Yes, this is discussed a lot, and my point isn't anything about "why" etc, but that:
x beats y
y beats z
=
x beats z
does not work.

The relationship of power between characters is so complex that it's nearly impossible to predict the high-end matchups.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It is a waste of time. Andarist is dead. He's not going to be fighting anything else.

[Agraba]

@GardenGnome:

Your definition of "lost" must mean "was not able to absolutely annihilate in under 1/8 of a second", which is actually a reasonable way to measure Icarium's success level. Still, we know that another 2 seconds of fighting would've seen Trull in 15 pieces.

Plus, you meant to use the "=>" (implies) sign, not the "=" (equals) sign.

But yeah, Cotillion for the win. Not that he can stand up to either of Darist's brothers, though.

[Dark Mac]

Agraba said:

But yeah, Cotillion for the win. Not that he can stand up to either of Darist's brothers, though.

You sure about that? In GotM, Rake isn't afraid of Shadowthrone and the nine HoS, but he thinks The Rope might be able to beat him.

[kaf09]

Dark Mac said:

You sure about that? In GotM, Rake isn't afraid of Shadowthrone and the nine HoS, but he thinks The Rope might be able to beat him.

That's right, Cotillion appears to be too good. Then again at the end of BH Cotillion was perhaps reluctant to face Icarium. Pointless discussion of course, but on relative terms of skill we have Icarium's own admission that the individual believed to be Dassem Ultor (shades of the artist formerly known as "Prince") was his superior. Interestingly, NoK gives us no idea of the relative prowess of DU versus Cotillion; would a swordsman always beat an assassin?

[tiam]

Dark Mac said:

You sure about that? In GotM, Rake isn't afraid of Shadowthrone and the nine HoS, but he thinks The Rope might be able to beat him.

Actually Rake claims that ST might be his match especially if the rope is about. I think Rake woiuld kill the rope quickly but i think he meant because hed have to fight both ST and the Rope so....

Also to people who think this thread is 'pointless speculation' or just plain pointless then so is the crazy theory thread along with most of these threads. This is an opinionated (?) forum so im allowed to make this comparison. Also D Menhir its not a complete write off from the books. We dont know what happened while Cutter was away and also i beleive Cotillion would have been hard pressed to kill the mages if hed bin stood were darist had been. Furthermore If they were in a field (say were Rake killed the hounds) Cotillion wouldnt be able to just appear in the middle of them. I mean a straight fight.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

You sure about that? In GotM, Rake isn't afraid of Shadowthrone and the nine HoS, but he thinks The Rope might be able to beat him.

As tiam says, Rake was reluctant to fight Cotillion and Shadowthrone AT THE SAME TIME. That's not the same as being afraid to fight Cotillion alone. You can't conclude from that statement that Cotillion is Rake's superior, only that Cotillion and Shadowthrone together are possibly a match for Rake.

[Hume]

One thing you have to take into consideration with Rake in any of these X vs Y imaginary fights is that he has Dragnipur. A mere scratch and you are toast.

Imagine two sword of fighters that are of exact equal skill.
One has dragnipur one has a normal sword.
The one with Dragnipur will win.

So for anyone to beat Rake while he has that sword they not only have to be better than him they have to be a whole hell of lot better than him. They would need to literally own him for the whole swordfight and make it quick.

[Aptorian]

HUME said:

One thing you have to take into consideration with Rake in any of these X vs Y imaginary fights is that he has Dragnipur. A mere scratch and you are toast.

Imagine two sword of fighters that are of exact equal skill.
One has dragnipur one has a normal sword.
The one with Dragnipur will win.

So for anyone to beat Rake while he has that sword they not only have to be better than him they have to be a whole hell of lot better than him. They would need to literally own him for the whole swordfight and make it quick.

Yes if we were talking normal mortal weapons. Cotillion uses a magical rope like a machinegun. I'm guessing it isn't pleasent to be on the recieving end of a gods weapon of choice either.

[Abyss]

Wolverine ftw.

- Abyss, sigh....

[Aptorian]

Actually I think Wolverine could take Cotillian, the old wolverine has metal skeleton, metal claws, healing powers, ninja/samurai training, special cia killer training and survived WW2.

Yes, Abyss, Wolverine for the win

[Illuyankas]

Well, Wolverine has survived being thrown into the sun, grown back from a drop of blood while without his adamantium, and grown back from his bone marrow after being reduced to just his adamantium skeleton by an explosion reaching bone marrow and brain tissue-searing temperatures in a matter of minutes. He stands a good chance.

However, Deadpool has regenerated from a puddle of vomit. And is the funniest character ever. So Deadpool wins.

[Abyss]

My work here is done.

- Abyss, riding off into the sunset

[Dolmen 2.0]

LOL wolverine is awesome...

That aside Cottilion is a fairly extraordinary character. In a field of battle with just a weapon of choice in hand I believe the outcome would go either way.

Andarist could have been the most powerful of the three brothers. That said If people believe Rake to be better than cottilion then andarist at his prime would destroy cottilion. Then again Cottilion is a rising power. If he is anything like apsalar (and he is) He would hold his own even against dassem.

A) As an assasin he relies on shadows? No he took out the edur both on land and on their ships. Head on.

Assasins against swordsmen swordsmen wins? No Range wins battles and the rope is the reigning champion in that respect.

C) Just one touch...Dragnipur? come now if rake beat it of its old master its a matter of time till some one does it to him. The question is will it be Dassem, Cottilion, karsa or Icarium...(insert others here.)

[tiam]

Abyss;104877 said:

Wolverine ftw.

- Abyss, sigh....

I cant see whats completely wrong with these whod win threads. I was just curios and it is a valid question. I just couldnt make my mind up.

Also Dolmen Is the Ropes rope really that long. I always pictured it as a small maybe 75cm rope. Dunno why. Also Dragnipur is the same length as rake is tall so around 7 feet

[philospher77]

tiam;104845 said:

Also to people who think this thread is 'pointless speculation' or just plain pointless then so is the crazy theory thread along with most of these threads. This is an opinionated (?) forum so im allowed to make this comparison. Also D Menhir its not a complete write off from the books. We dont know what happened while Cutter was away and also i beleive Cotillion would have been hard pressed to kill the mages if hed bin stood were darist had been. Furthermore If they were in a field (say were Rake killed the hounds) Cotillion wouldnt be able to just appear in the middle of them. I mean a straight fight.

But you are stacking the deck in the very example you give. You say "a straight fight", when talking about an assassin fighting a swordsman. Which immediately gives the swordsman an advantage. You could allow Cotillion to use all his tricks, which will give him an advantage over the swordsman. You seem to want a "fair" fight, while ignoring the fact that the proposed fight is advantageous to one of the two fighters. They aren't going to fight fairly, unless it's an arranged contest kind of fight.