[Dolorous Menhir]

And he's best friends with the Master of the Deck.

[Blend]

I was always under the impression that Anaster's power came from his mother, who was slightly crazy, and did everything simply for him. So the B&KB and Rake things I figured were just protections his powerful crazy witch of a mother had set up in order to save her most prized possession, her son. Perhaps even Pannion had something to do with it, seeing as Anaster was likely the only thing that kept the witch around, the only thing she really lived for except for humping dead people... Without Anaster, he loses some of the most powerful sorceresses in his army.

[BridgeBurner]

Kage-za said:

Definition #2 is a metaphorical reference to steering the ship of state. While helm certainly has that meaning, I think SE just means helmet and sword. At least the Crimson Guard and the Red Blades probably have different shades of red on their standards. The next army we meet will probably be the Mott Regulars, or Sha'ik Reborn's Army of the End of the World (also known as the Whirlpool).

Isn't this kind of phrasing used in organisations as well, instead of governments only? I've seen the phrase 'being at the helm' used a lot. Maybe that's just a stylish thing though. It'd fit in with SE's writing to use it like this though.

On a side note (maybe), Helm isn't a logical combination to use with Sword if you want to stick in the weapon equipment context. Do a forum search on 'Grey Shields' and see how often the Grey Helms were called Grey Shields right after BH came out...

Dolorous Menhir said:

I thought Helm meant "Helmet".

Because the plurals of the definitions you give don't make any sense.

Abyss said:

probably a double-entendre if it's true.

In a linguistic sense, it's easy to add a plural 's' after a group's name when referring to that group's members. I wouldn't put it past SE to do that. (I admit I can't find any RL examples though )

And yes, if this is how SE meant them to be, certainly a double-entendre...

[nzoreo]

just in reference to the togs mortal sword issue i thought the pure blood thelomen toblaki that had an enk'aral soul in it was going to be the tog mortal sword

[GardenGnome]

No, he is going to be Knight of High House War or somesuch...

[Aptorian]

... why? Wasn't that a big nasty demon?

Gotta get a wholed of DG soon I think

[GardenGnome]

The big nasty demon switched body with the enkar'al (or whatever), so the enkar'al was trapped in the thelomen toblakai body - then got promised a "new future" or somesuch, in a realm where there were still female enkar'als and whatnot.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The enkaral-souled TTT is going to be Champion of the Beast Hold. It said so right there in that passage of the book.

[Aptorian]

Amazing, reread is needed I think

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Are we talking about the Thelomen Toblaki at the end of DG. In an Azath House (??)

[Dolorous Menhir]

HoC - Kalam finds the Ashok Regiment under seige in a Malazan fort. He meets Sinn outside, where she has infiltrated the Whirlwind troops so she can save her brother, one of the Malazans inside.

Kalam gets inside and finds that Captain Kindly and Leiutenant Pores got swept away by an underground river as they investigated the TTT body under the fort (we later find the good captain still lives). Kalam investigates the body, is somewhat surprised to find it alive, possessed and trying to kill him, so he stabs it with his (Bellurdan-enchanted, a fellow TTT) dagger, releasing its blood into the river.

An innocent en'karal drinks from this tainted water and gets soul-switched - it goes into the TTT, and the demon commandeers the en'karal body. And then Kalam kills it.

In the meantime, the somewhat confused en'karal in a TTT body comes under the influence of Togg & Fanny, and the text says that it will become the Champion of the Beast Hold, which has found new, twin, rulers.

What TTT in the Azath in DG? Do you mean the armour suit that "talks" to Moby once the others have left? I thought that was an animated empty suit, given that everyone who saw it thought it was just armour set up for display, and you must be able to tell the difference between an empty suit of armour and one with a Tartheno Thelomen Toblakai in it, no?

The only reason to suggest it was TTT was the size, right?

[Abyss]

Agreed - iirc the description was vague enough that it could be Jaghut or FA.

But the enkar'al in the TTT body was chosen to be 'Champion' of the Beast Hold/House of War.

The confusion, i suppose comes from the fact that elsewhere in HoC, Karsa is referred to as both Knight and Mortal Sword, suggesting the two positions are interchangeable. Imnsho, they aren't - it's just that Karsa is both. 'Knight' and 'Champion', however, in terms of the DoD/Houses, are interchangeable and mean the same thing.

Also interesting that this was the very last enkar'al (a 'bull male') on 7C. Coincidence? Doubtful. Anyone recall whether the wyval/enkar'al in MT was id'd as male or female?

Interestingly, we know from MT that enar'al/wyval are dragon offspring of some sort, and one of the dragons on TB suggested that enkar'al are or were more common in Stavald Demelain. We didn't see any when the fleet travelled thru the Beast Hold warren in TB, but that doesn't mean anything, and i'm wondering whether a link exists between the Beast Hold and the Dragon Hold, or the Beast warren and SD, the dragon warren, because Togg and & Fancy have basically adopted a dragon (of sorts) as their Champion.

- Abyss, wonders how hard it is to paper train a wyval.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Dolorous Menhir said:

HoC - Kalam finds the Ashok Regiment under seige in a Malazan fort. He meets Sinn outside, where she has infiltrated the Whirlwind troops so she can save her brother, one of the Malazans inside.

Kalam gets inside and finds that Captain Kindly and Leiutenant Pores got swept away by an underground river as they investigated the TTT body under the fort (we later find the good captain still lives). Kalam investigates the body, is somewhat surprised to find it alive, possessed and trying to kill him, so he stabs it with his (Bellurdan-enchanted, a fellow TTT) dagger, releasing its blood into the river.

An innocent en'karal drinks from this tainted water and gets soul-switched - it goes into the TTT, and the demon commandeers the en'karal body. And then Kalam kills it.

In the meantime, the somewhat confused en'karal in a TTT body comes under the influence of Togg & Fanny, and the text says that it will become the Champion of the Beast Hold, which has found new, twin, rulers.

What TTT in the Azath in DG? Do you mean the armour suit that "talks" to Moby once the others have left? I thought that was an animated empty suit, given that everyone who saw it thought it was just armour set up for display, and you must be able to tell the difference between an empty suit of armour and one with a Tartheno Thelomen Toblakai in it, no?

The only reason to suggest it was TTT was the size, right?

Thanks for clearing that up. And yeh i always thought the suit or armour/thing was a TTT or a Jaghut.

[Aptorian]

I just thought it was a big nasty demon from somewhere, and when the enkaral drank the water it was transfered. I hadn't really thought of the vessel in the water not being the original demon.

I was guessing that the demon/TTT/Jaghut in the water was just some random evil. But now, knowing SE I'm pretty sure Dolores is right and that demon was something else.

I'm really looking forward to the DG arriving at my library.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The demon that possessed the TTT in the water, and then the en'karal, was in HoC.

[Aptorian]

bah.. my ignorance reaches new depths... sigh.

[Abyss]

The demon possessed the TTT body, and then the whole mess was bound by the NOs into the well, where it sat until Kalam inadvertently freed it via the blood.

Pity we're done with 7C, because i'm wondering whether a scavenger might come along to the enkaral body and be the demon's next host, and so on until it gets a satisfactory new body and starts more trouble.

- Abysssssssss, aint got no boooooody....

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kalam killed the demon.

I think.