[Dolorous Menhir]

Thelomen Toblakai said:

Ah. After what you said DM i went back to try and find out about the Destriant and Shield Anvil in the Grey Swords. I re-read it and found that the Destriant for the Grey Swords is a female that i couldnt find the name of, but the Grey Helms Destriant is a man called Run'Thurvian.

The Grey Swords Shield Anvil is a female called Norul and the The Grey Helms Shield Anvil a man called Tanakalian.

So i was wrong about them being the same company because they seem to have different Mortal Swords etc.

The thing is Grey Helms have 2 males and a femal Mortal Sword. And the Grey Swords have 2 females and a male Mortal Sword. I wonder if thats coincidence of something else? But it shows that both Togg and Fanderay must have their own Priests

Yes, that's the theory. Between the two organisations there are two of each position, one male and one female (and the Grey Sword Destriant and Shield Anvil were never named, if I remember correctly).

The gender lines just don't split neatly between the two groups, that's all.

I still don't think it's accurate to say the females belong to Fanny and vice-versa. As I said above, the Wolf Gods are more a pair than two separate entities. The male and female acolytes belong to both gods equally, in my opinion.

[Abyss]

Kage-za said:

If Tavore gets to be with one of the Grey armies, it would be a nice balance for Paran to get the other one (especially with his friend Toc in charge)? So perhaps Paran and co. are headed for Genabackis?

I get the impression that the House of War/Beast Hold is directly opposed to the House of Chains/CG, so a Grey Sword/Togg & Fishbait presence with Paran's force would make sense.

Given that apparently Paran can move the entire Host around at will, Genabackis and a link-up withthe GSwords seems workable. Paran, of anyone, would be aware of the HoW's position contra the HoC/CG.

Also, he has a previous link to Toc, so it would be fun to see them meet again. It seems likely Paran would know who the Mortal Sword Anaster used to be.


- Abyss, also wonders whether the whole stone weapons/visions thing will resurface.

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty certain they'll be back - after all, who got the weapons after they were taken from Toc? Anaster. Now AnasToc has them, he's bound to use them in battle sooner or later, unless SE does an otataral sword again

[Aptorian]

Whoa, Abyss?! Move the whole Host? When have we seen him move more than one person through portals and such? He had to travel across the sea on a ship and it's the trygalle trade guild that takes him to the nascent.

He might have the potential, like making a twenty foot wide card of genebackis with the G Swords on it and holding it up for wagons and stuff to run through... but I doubt that The Master of the Deck is supposed to be doing stuff like that (Not that Paran cares)

Or am I completely off base?

[Abyss]

Apt - y'know, i thought about whether or not to state that, but somewhere in TB, iirc, it states that the Host has disappeared, ie: Laseen can't find them, non?

So since they had a bunch of recruits, which means Laseen had the chance to stick a Claw or two in there since they were all killed on Genabackis, yet she can't find them, i figured Paran had something to do with that.

Besides, he doesn't have a fleet handy, how would he move them off 7C if not by MoD-power?

But yeah, i'm speculating above the ground.

- Abyss, on spec.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Illuyankas (sp?). Yeh sorry about that, it was just really preoviding evidenec to back up what you said cause i thought it was a good point.

And (can't remeber now who said that Destriant and Shield Anvil aren't named) The Shield Anvil, Destriant and Mortal Sword in the Grey Helms are all named and we know AnasToc is Mortal Sword in the Grey Swords and the Shield Anvil is named but the Destriant is just refered to as recruit.
And i just thought there might be something in the one female on male of SH, D and MS. Its just a theory.

[Aptorian]

I thought that the disappearence just ment that they hadn't been heard of for a long time and their position on 7C was unknown.

I figured no news had reached malaz because the plague was killing of the civilians and soldiers alike. But ofc that dosn't explain the claws. Maybe there isn't any or the ones that were have been turned like Toc.

It's a bit of a mystery how the army is gonna get of 7C, maybe like the Helms or maybe something nasty like the Teblor or felisins fat little army will rise.

[BridgeBurner]

Dolorous Menhir said:

The Grey Helms are not the Grey Swords, and if the Grey Helms really were working on that portal for over two years then they were around pre-Capustan, ie at the same as Fener's Grey Swords.

Though giving the two armies such similar names certainly makes it hard to distinguish, not very original writing there. Even I can do better than "Grey Helms" for the name of an army, especially with the "Grey Swords" already in play.

I think most people may be mistaking the Helm part in Grey Helms...


Taken from a dictionary (I left out the obvious Helmet part):

Quote

helm

1. Nautical. The steering gear of a ship, especially the tiller or wheel.
2. A position of leadership or control: at the helm of the government.

tr.v. helmed, helm?ing, helms
To take the helm of; steer or direct.

Doesn't this sound closer to what the Grey Helms have been doing? They are a nautical force so their chosen name could have a context here (or a pun by SE), and the preparing of the Portal and their guiding/advicing Tavore seems to fit in with 2. They surely know a lot about what the main conflict is about.

[Kage-za]

Thelomen Toblakai said:

And (can't remeber now who said that Destriant and Shield Anvil aren't named) The Shield Anvil, Destriant and Mortal Sword in the Grey Helms are all named and we know AnasToc is Mortal Sword in the Grey Swords and the Shield Anvil is named but the Destriant is just refered to as recruit.

Her name is Velbara. She earns a name during the seige. It is also listed in the list of characters in the front of MOI.

@Bridgeburner - Definition #2 is a metaphorical reference to steering the ship of state. While helm certainly has that meaning, I think SE just means helmet and sword. At least the Crimson Guard and the Red Blades probably have different shades of red on their standards. The next army we meet will probably be the Mott Regulars, or Sha'ik Reborn's Army of the End of the World (also known as the Whirlpool).

@me - In Fiddler's game, Tavore gets her brother's card because "even cold iron needs to be tempered." This suggests they are meeting up sometime soon, though I don't know how that could happen if Paran doesn't take his troops to Lether (or wherever the 14th is headed). Or... Tavore to Lether for RG where she gets bloodied because she needs her brother's blessing or something; Ganoes picks up Toc in Toll the Hounds, and everyone meets up on Assail for Dust of Dreams...?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought Helm meant "Helmet".

Because the plurals of the definitions you give don't make any sense.

[Abyss]

@Bridgeburner - Re: Grey Helms - y'know, i never thought of that. Clever. probably a double-entendre if it's true.

@K-z - re: Velbara - True. She actually appears quite a bit throughout MoI, but is named 'Recruit' through most of it. Iirc, she was one of the Capan womenthe GSwords recruited whom they called Capustan's most precious resource.

- Abyss, liked how the evolution of a totally minor character was charted right through the book.

[Kage-za]

Abyss said:

@Bridgeburner - Re: Grey Helms - y'know, i never thought of that. Clever. probably a double-entendre if it's true.

@K-z - re: Velbara - True. She actually appears quite a bit throughout MoI, but is named 'Recruit' through most of it. Iirc, she was one of the Capan womenthe GSwords recruited whom they called Capustan's most precious resource.

- Abyss, liked how the evolution of a totally minor character was charted right through the book.

I was editing my post to include that about Velbara... and then I edited it back out, since you got there first.

Speaking of double-entendres... helms and swords could be referring to a certain part of the male anatomy... but that just ain't right... ew. Forget I mentioned the children of the dead seed and their prominent role in one of the armies...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss said:

@K-z - re: Velbara - True. She actually appears quite a bit throughout MoI, but is named 'Recruit' through most of it. Iirc, she was one of the Capan womenthe GSwords recruited whom they called Capustan's most precious resource.

Wasn't "Recruit" one of the survivors of the K'ell Hunter assault on Itkovian's patrol very early in the book? She may still have been Capan though, can't remember if the Grey Swords were actively recruiting the Capan women that long before the seige took place.

[GardenGnome]

Yes, I believe she refused to be sent back as a messenger, and Itkovian said she did/said the right thing.

Kage-za said:

@me - In Fiddler's game, Tavore gets her brother's card because "even cold iron needs to be tempered."

Paran is hot iron, then? Interesting...

[Abyss]

Velbara also got Brukhalian's horse and if i recall correctly, stood with Itkovian when they held the Throne room in honour of the recently eaten Prince.

- Abyss, hasn't eaten recently.

[Tattooed Hand]

I want to see little 15 year old Anaster meet F&T's other Mortal Sword, the big lady. Do you think the positions all have one male and one female because they are suppose to complement each other in some way? Or for some sort of orgy ritual?

Can you imagine being transported into a 15 year old body. All that partying awaiting you, again...

Also, is being a child of the deadseed a bad thing nature wise or just nurture wise? I mean they are normal kids who are just messed up from watching their moms hump dead guys, right?

[Tattooed Hand]

@ Hetan
Why were you surprised that Toc didn't recognize Tool, the last time Toc saw him, he was a few hundred thousand years older looking... and Toc's just been through quite an ordeal being squeezed to death by a giant hysterical killer chicken.

[Aptorian]

Tattooed Hand said:

I want to see little 15 year old Anaster meet F&T's other Mortal Sword, the big lady. Do you think the positions all have one male and one female because they are suppose to complement each other in some way? Or for some sort of orgy ritual?

Can you imagine being transported into a 15 year old body. All that partying awaiting you, again...

Also, is being a child of the deadseed a bad thing nature wise or just nurture wise? I mean they are normal kids who are just messed up from watching their moms hump dead guys, right?

Anaster was special in that he somehow was the fulcrum of the deadseeds power. Remember that he kicked Bauchelain and Korbald Broaches ass with a flick of his hands... or almost anyway, I think he had help from the evil women.

The army of the deadseed was supposed to be a dread thing. I'm guessing a couple of hundredthousand empty vessels, that the CG could channel his power through. Remember that Rake in his Eleint form couldn't pick up Anaster because it burned him... so... not just screwed up mentally.

Question then is, did some of anasters presence stay on after Toc took his body? Will it devour his soul and make him evil or will it give him powers of the dead seed?

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Apt said:

Question then is, did some of anasters presence stay on after Toc took his body? Will it devour his soul and make him evil or will it give him powers of the dead seed?

I don't think any of the Dead Seeds power will still be in AnasToc because Anaster was one of the Crippled Gods tools. But Toc is one of Toggs own tools so when he was placed in the body it would have driven out any control the CG had over him. I don't think Togg would let one of his "pack" be turned to CGs side

[Abyss]

And the point was made, fairly clearly, that Anaster feared the Sheild Anvil because pain was all he had and was. Once that was siphoned off, no more Anaster in any real sense.

The real question, to my mind, is whether Toc retains any of Anaster's power that took on B&KB and Rake.

As an aside, love the trademark SE multi-power up... Toc the Younger, son of an Old Guard, talented soldier and trained Claw spy (tho not assassin), looses an eye to a chunk of Andii retasked K'chain real estate and gets precognitive visions, spends time in the warren of Chaos, is possessed by an ElderELDER God Wolf, bonds with/gets weapons from/is renamed by the Imass First Sword, is invested with healing power by the Seer, gets cuddled by a KC Matron, dies (always a key step in ascensions)then has his soul switched into the body of a guy powerful enough to make Mommy D's first born Andii son flinch. And now he's a Mortal Sword.

- Abyss, doesn't feel bad about having to wash AND dry dishes now.