[philospher77]

I believe it's in this book that someone mentions that "despite what Rake says", the Tiste Andii are not Mother Dark's first children. (If it's not, could someone move this to the right forum? My copy of the book is loaned out, so I can't check.) But I have been wondering who the first children are, if not the Andii? It could be the Elder Gods, but I am not sure. What other contenders are there? The other Tiste? That doesn't seem too likely to me.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The other Tiste races are definitely younger than the Andii.

The Elder Gods are a possibility. Also (and I'm just throwing out names here) Tiam & the Dragons, Father Light, a different founding race like the KCCM though that is a long shot.

BH has further candidates which I will not disclose here.

[Dark Mac]

IIRC, it's said that MD's first children were not TA, not that the TA were not her first children. My first thought was that this means Rake, Ruin, and Andarist are not Tiste Andii, nor is MD herself.

[philospher77]

Interesting parsing. It's possible, although a little bit hard for me to handle, since Rake, at least, looks like Tiste Andii, and is always talked about as Andii. And, if the way I am remembering it is correct, Rake identifies himself as Andii, which would still fit the comment (the "despite his claims" part, that is). But it seems like a bit of a stretch.

And, of course, the person speaking about the issue could be mistaken.

[philospher77]

So, is Rake's geneology suspect? After all, he does claim to be the son of Mother Dark, with no father involved. This could just be poetic license, or it could be a statement of fact. Since I haven't quite been able to pin down whether or not Mother Dark has a physical incorporation, or is just Darkness, its hard to say for sure.

Having too much time between these books makes me think too hard about what could be going on in them.

[Yasnian]

Dragons?

MD is suppose to have a physical form cause shes currently hinding in the darkness in Galain

[Dark Mac]

Well, Rake is referenced as having a chat with MD before heading to Wu, so I'm thinking that she's a sentient being.

[Wry]

Dark Mac said:

IIRC, it's said that MD's first children were not TA, not that the TA were not her first children. My first thought was that this means Rake, Ruin, and Andarist are not Tiste Andii, nor is MD herself.

Actually this makes sense. I always had a problem with MD birthing whole races... i mean how many would she have to create to have a viable genetic pool? Which would make me think that it was a mythical adam and eve type story - but it's mentioned variously that MD is an actual being not a metaphor.

SO... It would make sense that she may have created rake, ruin and darist (possibly others) who then went and adopted the tiste, a race which had an ordinary evolutionary genisis.

(this would also explain rakes godlike powers)

And if so it would leave some interesting speculation about the edur and liosians. are the andi and liosans two separate races or different flavours of the same?

[philospher77]

Wry said:

Actually this makes sense. I always had a problem with MD birthing whole races... i mean how many would she have to create to have a viable genetic pool? Which would make me think that it was a mythical adam and eve type story - but it's mentioned variously that MD is an actual being not a metaphor.

SO... It would make sense that she may have created rake, ruin and darist (possibly others) who then went and adopted the tiste, a race which had an ordinary evolutionary genisis.

(this would also explain rakes godlike powers)

And if so it would leave some interesting speculation about the edur and liosians. are the andi and liosans two separate races or different flavours of the same?

I can buy the whole Adam and Eve parallel, but if she didn't create the entire Andii race, it seems rather unlikely that Rake, Ruin, and Andarist would so closely resemble the Andii. It would be like God creating Adam and Eve, and them hanging around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the apes to evolve into humans. With God having had the foresight to realize what the apes were going to look like at the end of it all.

And it's not entirely impossible for Mother Dark to both have a physical form and be a metaphorical being. The physical form could be a shell that she assumes when she wants to physically interact with the universe, but which can be discarded when it gets too limiting. Think of Mael as Bugg, or Fener in his current boar state. Which he wasn't before getting pulled in to the mortal realms. And Treach going godly is an example of a physical form becoming metaphorical.

[Cedeos]

The idea appeals to me.

The Tiste Andii evolving as a normal race, with Rake and his brothers, being created by MD, becoming the gods and leaders of the Andii. Think about it, we have something similar in our christian religion ... Jesus being the son of god, being a human but also being a kind of god himself ... and if you look at greek mythology, for example, how many sons of Zeus became leaders of their people?

So it all comes down to Andii mythologie and religion ... maybe Rake was there long before the Andii evolved and he decided to walk amongst them and then became their god which was then passed down as a sort of Genesis ...

Actually, I like your approach, Wry.

[Wry]

philospher77 said:

I can buy the whole Adam and Eve parallel, but if she didn't create the entire Andii race, it seems rather unlikely that Rake, Ruin, and Andarist would so closely resemble the Andii. It would be like God creating Adam and Eve, and them hanging around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the apes to evolve into humans. With God having had the foresight to realize what the apes were going to look like at the end of it all.

Well i was assuming that the brothers had some choice over how they appeared. Assuming they were birthed by MD, an elemental force (possibly THE elemental force) they would be gods on a par with krul, mael, et al. this would mean they could manifest an apearance similar to the tiste (and rake is the only one who looks classicaly andii anyway). Andarist implied to cutter that choice had a lot to do with both his and rakes appearance (admittedly he was talking about draconicia)

Quote

And it's not entirely impossible for Mother Dark to both have a physical form and be a metaphorical being. The physical form could be a shell that she assumes when she wants to physically interact with the universe, but which can be discarded when it gets too limiting. Think of Mael as Bugg, or Fener in his current boar state. Which he wasn't before getting pulled in to the mortal realms. And Treach going godly is an example of a physical form becoming metaphorical.

In these books gods are beings of a different order, but still beings, meaning they are not a metaphor. I'm not talking about MD having a physical form and a non-physical one, i'm talking about her existing as a concept/myth, or as a being in fact. non of your examples do both, they just go from one state to another.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Rake, Andarist and Ruin are Tiste Andii. I don't understand how people can argue otherwise.

Scabby is a Tiste Edur.
Osric is a Tiste Liosan.

[Cedeos]

But that is not denied here ...
The question is, have they always been Tiste Andii or have they been here before them and then chose to become Tiste Andii?
Just speculations here around, but very interesting.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't understand. Rake was the first Tiste Andii, the others came later. Where is the confusion?

[Cedeos]

Like Adam was the first human being?

That is just what Wry means, starting from philospher77's statement, that the Andii were not the first race, it all comes down to mythology, Andii mythology to be correct.
All we know is that Rake is perhaps really the First Son of Mother Dark, but it is unlikely (as philosopher states) that the Andii were the first ones after MD and we are just spekulating how that fits.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I always wonder if Tiam was Mother Dark's first offspring. If anything is older than the Tiste Andii (excepting the Elder Gods/Elementals) it will be the dragons.

[Cedeos]

That would be my best guesses, too.

[tiam]

Something that bothered me is that if Rake believes that MD first children were Andii that would make him the oldest living being in the world. He would be the first living thing ever. Now that means he dwarfs the Eg the KCCM and the dragons by many a year. i know this goes on the whole timeline thing but i thought id throw it out there