[Grimlock]

Ok, several things I'd like to mention...

-In the prologue of MoI, it is mentioned that Togg and Fanderay are older than K'rul. So...? Hmmm? I mean, are they Elder gods, or something else entirely? ( And I'm too lazy to find the relevant quote from the book, sorry )

-Anomander, Andarist, and the relatives of Anomander ( on Drift Avalii ) have white hair. Silchas Ruin is an Albino. It is strange that they're all somehow different from the other Tiste Andii. With perhaps the possible exception of Silvanah, the white dragon? This might be because....

-Anomander and Silchas Ruin drank of Tiams blood ( did Andarist do it as well, to then deny that part of his heritage? ), mightn't this've changed them somehow? And... how did they drink of it? I mean... Is Tiam dead?

-And where in the name of Hood does Father Light come into this? I don't think he's a child of Mother Dark.

-On the note of how long the Tiste races has been in their warrens... The Tiste Lionsan has barely left their warren, so there's no way to know how much time the Andii and Edur spent there. And might there not be any more Andii/Edur hiding around in their warrens still? Oh, and in HoC, the Lionsan were clearly familiar with the Edur and Andii. Partly friendly with the Edur, although they considered them to be lesser than Lionsan. And they hated the Andii.

Quote

Silchas Ruin. Tiste Andii, who fed in the wake of his brother – fed on Tiam’s blood, and drank deep. Deeper than Anomander Rake by far. Darkness and chaos. He would have accepted the burden of godhood...had he been given the chance.

This made me curious. The darkness part is obvious, but chaos? Does this means the Eleint represent chaos? It makes sense, in a way. Because ( I might be wrong, but... ) all the other warrens sprang out from Starvald Demelain, and Chaos is the oldest warren, isn't it?


Ok, I know, more questions than answers... Oh well...

[Wry]

Me said:

You don't know either of those things, why bother to read a complex book if you're going to take the simplest view of it?

The point i'm making is that you don't know that rake and ruin are andii, the underlying theme of these books (as i understand it) is about the interpretations of history, and that you rarely get one definitive version of the past. SE makes this point over and over again, in both obvious and subtle ways. Just because you see it either of those character refered to as Andii, doesn't neccessarily make it gospel, indeed even if every other character thinks they are it doesn't mean it's so.

There's been several times where things were presented as being one way and then in another book we're given a completely conflicting version.

I think anyone who takes every word written at face value is completely missing the larger point being made.

[Grimlock]

Wry;129995 said:

I think anyone who takes every word written at face value is completely missing the larger point being made.

Or to quote Tool: "There is probably little truth in this story, Adjunct."-pg. 449 in GotM, before giving the version of the break between some of the Tiste Andii ( Rake? ) and MD known to the T'lan Imass.

[Aptorian]

Grimlock;129096 said:

Ok, several things I'd like to mention...

-In the prologue of MoI, it is mentioned that Togg and Fanderay are older than K'rul. So...? Hmmm? I mean, are they Elder gods, or something else entirely? ( And I'm too lazy to find the relevant quote from the book, sorry )

We don't really know what they are or were. They could be a type of elder god, but if they are then they are of a kind that preceeds Mother Darks spawn. Personaly I could imagine them being being a kind of old nature gods made flesh walking the earth, that or they are like the Eres, of a very, very old race and thus very strong.

Grimlock;129096 said:

-Anomander, Andarist, and the relatives of Anomander ( on Drift Avalii ) have white hair. Silchas Ruin is an Albino. It is strange that they're all somehow different from the other Tiste Andii. With perhaps the possible exception of Silvanah, the white dragon? This might be because....

-Anomander and Silchas Ruin drank of Tiams blood ( did Andarist do it as well, to then deny that part of his heritage? ), mightn't this've changed them somehow? And... how did they drink of it? I mean... Is Tiam dead?

They look strange because SE wanted them too and it makes them all manga like and funny

Grimlock;129096 said:

-And where in the name of Hood does Father Light come into this? I don't think he's a child of Mother Dark.

According to the myth Mother Dark might have given birth to him and they then made funny little babies that the older children didn't like.

Some theories as to who he is:
Osserc - Even though the Draconean family tree says that Father Light is the father of Osserc (This is my favorite theory)
The CG - I think it's the irony that people charise
Someone or something that we haven't heard of yet and might never.

Grimlock;129096 said:

This made me curious. The darkness part is obvious, but chaos? Does this means the Eleint represent chaos? It makes sense, in a way. Because ( I might be wrong, but... ) all the other warrens sprang out from Starvald Demelain, and Chaos is the oldest warren, isn't it?

SD and KG are the oldest warrens and are thus very close to chaos, the rest is speculation.

Wry;129995 said:

The point i'm making is that you don't know that rake and ruin are andii, the underlying theme of these books (as i understand it) is about the interpretations of history, and that you rarely get one definitive version of the past. SE makes this point over and over again, in both obvious and subtle ways. Just because you see it either of those character refered to as Andii, doesn't neccessarily make it gospel, indeed even if every other character thinks they are it doesn't mean it's so.

There's been several times where things were presented as being one way and then in another book we're given a completely conflicting version.

I think anyone who takes every word written at face value is completely missing the larger point being made.

Wry there's such a thing as logical scepticism, I think you're way past that being so paranoid at what we've heard so far.

We might get new stories that give a different light to certain parts but going as far as thinking that the creatures we know as one race suddenly isn't... that's very far fetched. That's like something out of a bad soapopera.

You seriously can not say that especially Rake but also Ruin and Andarist aren't Tiste.

[Wry]

All i did was give a reasonable suggestion as to how the tiste races, rake, ruin et al came about. I didn't say it was fact, and i don't present it as a certainty. it's just something to consider.
We know next to nothing about their origins for certain, which is why it irks me when people say things like "The people who think Rake, Ruin & Andarist are not Andii are wrong" when they've as little certainty as anyone else.

[Aptorian]

Wry;130219 said:

We know next to nothing about their origins for certain, which is why it irks me when people say things like "The people who think Rake, Ruin & Andarist are not Andii are wrong" when they've as little certainty as anyone else.

This is the part I don't understand.

They are constantly refered to by the author as Tiste Andii, the humans and edur around them refer to them as Tiste, or betrayers, which is the same thing. They refer to themselves as tiste andii.

Ruin
p. 3 MT
"The albino Tiste Andii's pallid face twisted in a silent snarl.
This is Scabby's POV, how does he not know what Ruin is?!

p. 678 MT
[Shurq's line] "If I am not mistaken," she said to him, "you are of the same blood as the Tiste Edur."
A slight frown as he looked down upon her."No. I am Tiste andii."
Ruin should know what race he is.

Darist
p. 438 HoC
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the wall...

Crokus has seen Rake more than once, he knows what a Tiste Andii looks like.

Andarist says this of his brother, p. 439 HoC
"Does he renew his claims to the Tiste Andii blood then?"

Do you think Darist doesn't know his brother and his owns blood and background. They are the first children of MD.

Rake
I won't even attempt to look for a quote here, he's been called Tiste Andii so many times that it's crazy.

Maybe I'm just not understanding your argument, but why can't you take their race for granted.

Unless you want to use Andarist argument about the blood and say that Ruin and Rake are no longer Andii because their blood is part Draconian.

[tiam]

They are all Tiste Andii or soletaken in which case that is your only arguement. Theyare the first tiste andii created by MD but not her first children if we are to beleive Osserc which i have to say we must given Eriksons controversial tendencies. The first children were likely the EG. I think the Eres are even older than anything. They are the first spirits of the world. THey simply existed thats why they have more power than anyone else. If we believe that the EG are from a time before dark or a time of elementals then it must be that MD first children were something else. THe first flicker of life happened before the time of all dark.

[Grimlock]

I think Thyr, Thryllan ( if that's a warren ) are children of Tellan, not the other way around...

And I think both the Andii and Lionsan are older than the Edur. ( Ok, that wasn't really very relevant... )

[Aptorian]

leeloo;130791 said:

As it seems nothing is older than MD(chaos not included).She was the first ruler of the universe(before the coming of Light-acc to dragons from BH) and Mother who birthed all(acc to some)--if we are to believe those chained dragons from BH when MD ruled nothing else had,so what existed then?aside from Andii(Dark),Dragons(Chaos) an EG(all other aspects-currently in hiding) probably nothing else.With the coming of Light, Life,together with all other elements,came also.Eresal are the first flickers of life so younger than Andii,Liosan and maybe even Edur.I always had an impression that Tellan came from Thryllan(Fire from Light) and before there were Eresal and their Time magic.Rope also made a point about Time being a child aspect of Light, of course he was not sure.
So Eresal older then EG?most probably not,EG are not simply from one world so maybe not even from one time, some older than other--who knows
Eresal are decribed as predecessors of imass and humans,walking under the brightly shining sun...how come there is sun when we are in the time of all darkness(light hasn't come yet) or even before(BTW what is even before?)sorry Tiam ,that doesn't make sense, I can't accept there where suns before Father Light and somewhere comments were made about suns coming from Father Light or Light.
btw ?Light=Father Light?

The whole MD creating the whole universe thing is a bit fuzzy. Did she create the elements and Wu abd everything else. Or was she just birthed and then she made a few races... I believe the last one.

I believe she created some of the EG's and the Tiste races in their own realms, but Wu and probably the dragons already existed when The Tiste races were born.

It is plausible though that The Andii were created before every thing else on Wu. In theory the Andii could have existed for millions of years in darkness before the war and the races came to Wu in the time of the elder gods.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Grimlock;130877 said:

I think Thyr, Thryllan ( if that's a warren ) are children of Tellan, not the other way around...

Thyr & Telas are human derivatives of Tellan.

Tellan is an Imass descendent of Kurald Thyrllan.

Quote

And I think both the Andii and Lionsan are older than the Edur. ( Ok, that wasn't really very relevant... )

That's right. The Tiste races were created in the order Andii-Liosan-Edur. This has been backed up many times in the books, I think we can regard it as fact.

[Wry]

Did mother dark create the whole universe? I didn't think so, in fact only the tiste, as far as i can recall, credit her as the creator. I also seem to remember a POV from one of the elder gods where she was contemporary with them, meaning she is just another elemental force (I don't have the passage to hand but i'll find it, i could be wrong)

[Grimlock]

Now, if you haven't read Bonehunters, don't read this, ok? Seriously, you really don't wanna do that

Spoiler

Concering the Elder gods as MD's children... A quote from Cotillion's discussion with the three chained dragons in the shadow realm: "Even when darkness ruled alone, there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only to their own laws. It is the nature of Darkness that it but rules itself.

[Aptorian]

Grimlock;131082 said:

Now, if you haven't read Bonehunters, don't read this, ok? Seriously, you really don't wanna do that

Spoiler

Concering the Elder gods as MD's children... A quote from Cotillion's discussion with the three chained dragons in the shadow realm: "Even when darkness ruled alone, there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only to their own laws. It is the nature of Darkness that it but rules itself.

Not that much a spoiler but probably shouldn't be posted anyway

Spoiler

I think the big problem about the when ever we hear of MD and creation is... how much did she create?

Is she the creator of everything that has form and shape and she borrowed the existing elements floating around to give first the Andii realms and places like Wu laws of nature and time etc.

Did she also create the demon realms then? And what about the foreign realm the CG was pulled out of, did she create this place or was it an alternate universe without a MD?

Or is she simply the original source of the Andii and their homworlds and really have no power or say to a place like Wu, besides the power that can be drawn to that world. If and when she dies in a billion years is it simply the realm of darkness that dies or is it the entire universe and everything around it.

Giving the nature of K'rul and the other elements, I think MD's death will simply just be like the big crunch since everything just returns, at least in KG, to it's original state.

[timmbuktwo]

who knows, maybe mother dark is just a big myth that the tiste's and others beleive in , like our ancestors in zeus and hercules, or us now (as some would think) of a god, or which god, and maybe they are really like us and dont have a answer,

or maybe not. hmmm.....

[timmbuktwo]

but i do like your explanation leeloo. if there is a known fact than i think you've got it.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think we can safely say Mother Dark is real.

[Wry]

Yep real but likely wrapped up in a whole lot of myth. That she exists in some form or other is about the only thing we can be sure of.