[Illuyankas]

A monologue from effectively the narrator describing the demon's possession of the 'noble, purebred TTT', before the en'karal is trapped in it, and Toc and Fanderay approach it and hire it as the Knight/Champion/Bouncer (more of a splatter, really) of the Beast Hold or something. After Kalam kills it and is found by Pust in HOC.

[Aptorian]

Okay... Then the TTT really were quite enourmous. What 2-3 times the hight of a Kalam? Kalam being a fairly tall person that could meen they are anything from 4-6 meters tall or more... that's BIG.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Just imagine how short you'd feel if actually in the malazan world. It seems everybody and their mom is over 7 feet tall. I'm 6 foot even, and would get a napolean complex in about 2 minutes.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Here's another clue as to Karsa's height from DG, page 433. "Heboric released the Toblakai's wrists, grasped the giant by his neck and belt, then, in a surge, threw him out into the darkness." Grabbing Karsa by the neck and belt would be hard if he was around 8 feet feet tall, impossible if he was much taller. Heboric's arms are only so long.

[Illuyankas]

He could have folded Karsa.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

It's possible, but I think Karsa would have something to say about that. It's one thing to grab and throw him, but I don't know about folding. If Karsa was 12 feet tall, how would he have even reached his neck?

[Dragnipur]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;119656 said:

Here's another clue as to Karsa's height from DG, page 433. "Heboric released the Toblakai's wrists, grasped the giant by his neck and belt, then, in a surge, threw him out into the darkness." Grabbing Karsa by the neck and belt would be hard if he was around 8 feet feet tall, impossible if he was much taller. Heboric's arms are only so long.

I'm inclined to say that this would have been a pretty easy stretch to acomplish,
a persons arm span is supposed to be similar to their height so if the average human is about 6' (don't know heboric's actual height) so would his arm span be. Saying that if Karsa was about 12' tall it would be a strech but accompishable anyways. Although I'm not so sure about him being 12'.

[Dark Mac]

Not to mention Heboric's ghost hands, which probably make things like distance rather irrelevant.

[timmbuktwo]

to help with a earlier question, i beleive the way the ancestry goes is;
kccm to jaghut, jaghut breed with ttt -offspring - jhag , jhag with tlann imass offspring - teblor, tlann imass with ? - human.
dont take this as fact, its just what i derive at from these first 4 books. if anyone can clarify better im sure we'd all aprreciate it!

[timmbuktwo]

@ dragnipur.;
the average arm span is both arms combined stretched out straight, so i think that grabbing some one, if you're six feet tall, doesn't mean you could reach 6 feet up in the air. at best, 3 feet, but assuming your head is above your shoulders , more accurately only at most 2feet reach. therefore, if heboric is a 6 foot tall man, the tallest (standing upright) "being" he could grab by the neck (without jumping ) would be about 8 feet tall. hence, i think all those theories arond 8 feet are probobly accurate! again, that is only my guess.

[Aptorian]

timmbuktwo;130686 said:

to help with a earlier question, i beleive the way the ancestry goes is;
kccm to jaghut, jaghut breed with ttt -offspring - jhag , jhag with tlann imass offspring - teblor, tlann imass with ? - human.
dont take this as fact, its just what i derive at from these first 4 books. if anyone can clarify better im sure we'd all aprreciate it!

Do you mean that KCCM evolved into Jaghut? There's no relation between them besides slavery.

ABout Jhags - I think it is in HoC were it is revealed that many Jhags have TTT blodd butJhags are just halfbloods, they could in theory have any other race than jagut as a parent.

I think Imass to human was a natural evolution not the product of cross breeding.

And you forgot Eres which probably evolved into Imass.

[timmbuktwo]

True about the eres . i think the world started with the "forkrul" beings, which i think were "parents" to the kccm , ttt, and possibly jaghut and eres as well. i think they are the founding species, and then the rest evolved from there. the cross-breeding i think is where the guessing begins, and probobly only one man really knows that system!

however, i think some of these founding species mixed with other "other dimension" species, such as the three tiste species, and maybe some other unknown ones as of yet. could be karsa is a rake/icarium mix, or sengar/tool !(just examples)

[Dolorous Menhir]

timmbuktwo;131055 said:

True about the eres . i think the world started with the "forkrul" beings, which i think were "parents" to the kccm , ttt, and possibly jaghut and eres as well. i think they are the founding species, and then the rest evolved from there. the cross-breeding i think is where the guessing begins, and probobly only one man really knows that system!

I don't think there's any basis to what you are asserting here.

The Forkrul Assail are not the original species from which all others descended! The FA are like the "Greys", the stereotypical alien from the X-Files, etc. The reactions of Serenity when challenged by the Edur in MT do suggest that they are native to the Malazan world though (it was amused when the Edur suggested banishing "the demon" to it's "own realm")

The KCCM have been referred to more than once as interlopers from outside the Malazan world, they are not related to any other species save possibly the Jaghut. Roughly, the KCCM are dinosaurs. Highly technological dinosaurs.

The Eres are the original sentient life on the Malaz world (stated), a chain of progression something like

Eres - Imass - Human

is far better supported by the books. It even mirrors the

Homo Erectus - Neanderthal - Human

progression of the real world (I know the real evolutionary path is not as simple as that, I think the Neanderthal were actually an evolutionary dead end?). SE has acknowledged the Imass are basically highly intelligent Neanderthals. Note the similarity between the words Eres & Erectus also, I'm sure that is no coincidence.

The Toblakai have defied all attempts to place them in the hierarchy of other races. They are not one of the "Founding Four" which have been repeatedly given as the

Forkrul Assail, Jaghut, KCCM, Imass

but quotes suggest they are independent of all those races and have equal status as "Founding". Other quotes suggest TTT descend from the Jaghut or the Imass. But not the FA! No other race has ever been linked with the FA.

We do know for sure that

TTT + Imass = Barghast

and

TTT => Teblor,

but that's all. It's unverified if

Jaghut + TTT = Jhag,

though it's plausible.

Quote

however, i think some of these founding species mixed with other "other dimension" species, such as the three tiste species, and maybe some other unknown ones as of yet. could be karsa is a rake/icarium mix, or sengar/tool !(just examples)

What? Karsa is an Imass/Edur halfbreed??? Or an Andii/Jaghut/(whatever Icarium's mum was) mix?

At least they are original suggestions...but Karsa is a Teblor, a Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai. As far as we know that race shares no blood with any of the Tiste, and has only shaky evidence linking it to the Imass & the Jaghut.

[timmbuktwo]

assuming jhag is one half jaghut, then it is stated in HOC that icarium's other half is TTT. at least it is obviously implied.
the only evidence conecting TTT to jaghut is that they breeded to create jhag.however, i still think TTT breeded with KCCM and then we get jaghut.
TTT survied, KCCM didn't (somewhat) , they breeded (over 100000years or so) with their "technically speaking" descendants jaghut and created jhag.

but question?; is karsa a teblor, or a thelomen tartherno toblakai ? i thought it is said quite often that he was a teblor , a descendant of the TTT , but not a true TTT. please help clarify if you can.

[Aptorian]

timmbuktwo;131554 said:

assuming jhag is one half jaghut, then it is stated in HOC that icarium's other half is TTT. at least it is obviously implied.
the only evidence conecting TTT to jaghut is that they breeded to create jhag. however, I still think TTT breeded with KCCM and then we get jaghut.
TTT survied, KCCM didn't (somewhat) , they breeded (over 100000years or so) with their "technically speaking" descendants jaghut and created jhag.

but question?; is karsa a teblor, or a thelomen tartherno toblakai ? i thought it is said quite often that he was a teblor , a descendant of the TTT , but not a true TTT. please help clarify if you can.

I believe Cynigig or whom ever Karsa had the long talk with implied that Iccy's mom could be TTT... also am I missinterpreting stuff, if I have a feeling Karsa and the Jaghut sheboinged?

And again Jhag is a Jhagut half breed, any other race mixed with Jaghut makes a Jhag, not just TTT or Teblor.

TTT did not breed with any short or long tails to make a Jaghut. Could you honestly believe that Karsa or a bigger version of him, getting the freak on with a giant raptor? If and when the KCCM may have experimented on the Jaghut it will have been through genetic engineering not interracial shinanigans. And nothing we've heard of makes me think that KCCM created the Jaghut, they are merely a species that were used by the KCCM.

Karsa is a Teblor, since his mother and father were Teblor. Karsa merely displays the traits of the "extinct" TTT. He's stubborn, magically reistant (with some ottataral in the mix), may have his own warren and he's tough as nails. But he doesn't have anywere near the hight HoC suggests a TTT has. Karsa is 8-9 feet tall, a TTT is twice that.

[Wry]

Also weren't the original TTT renowned for being noble, loyal, etc. even if the did get their freak on with the matrons (and i'm assumming only the matrons are fertile), would they then let their offspring become lizard-slaves for millenia?

[Joord]

erisi236;120070 said:

Also he uses Malazan short swords as daggers, short swords a 2 - 2 1/2 feet and daggers are 10 - 20 inches long, again that puts him in that 7 1/2 - 8 1/2 feet range.

Another thing is that when he goes inside normal human doors he has to duck to get in, usually doors are 7feet give or take depeding on style or function, if Karsa is somewhere beyond 9feet he'd have to do alot more then duck.

I was going to mention the longswords, too. On page 82 of the American hardback edition, this quote is said:

Quote

A longsword--its blade as puny as a long knife's to Karsa's eyes -- struck the leather-armoured thigh, cutting through two, perhapes three of the hardened layers, before bouncing away.

Then, same edition, page 101:

Quote

'I have no intention of funning,' the warleader [i.e., Karsa] growled, looping both swordbelts over a shoulder, the scabbarded longswords looking miniscule where tehy rested against his back.

I looked up the average lengths of a longsword, and they range from about 102 cm to 122 cm, between 3ft 4in and 4ft for us backwards Americans. :cool:

And those swords looked tiny on him!