[Dolorous Menhir]

IT WAS THE EMPIRE.

Is Bottle Dal Honese? Is he old enough to have been fathered by Kellanved before becoming Empire (as Temper at least may have been)? Are the magical abilities of Bottle in any way similar to Kellanved's?

Seriously, Tays was referring to the Empire. Plucking Bottle out of the air is just an even bigger misunderstanding of the text - at least the people who push Temper can point to the close proximity of the Temper reference to the child reference.

Bottle has nothing to do with Kellanved. He is not his son either.

Given Kellanved's age, you could make a similar claim of parentage for any human character in the series, with the same level of evidence as for Bottle, i.e. none at all.

[Sir Thursday]

If you really disliked the idea that it was the Empire, you could always try to make a case for Grub...although it would be a very weak one and Grub doesn't really fit the quote.

Sir Thursday

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kellanved was already Shadowthrone when Grub was born. Seriously doubt ST fathers many children. Though gods do seem capable of it in the Malazan world, we've yet to see any human ascendant gods do so.

Depending on Bottle's age (late teens, early 20's) he would've had to have been sired during the years of Kellanved & Dancer's ten year absence from the known world and Laseen's regency of the Empire. Not when Kellanved would've been knocking up people in Quon Tali (the Fourteenth was sourced from Quon, right?).

[dktorode]

like i said.......... Nok proves Temper isn't ST's son ...nough said...end of thread...good bye!!!!!!!

[Greymane]

1. If Tays was referring to the Empire, he could have said the Empire. The Empire has never been referred to as Kellanved's child before. Theres no reason to make the statement ambiguous, other than SE having a laugh at all the speculation it would cause.

2. Bottle isn't plucked from thin air. No he's not Dal Honese, he's a Malazan, and presumably his mother is also. His principal warren is Meanas. His grandmother was a witch who used older magic, as was his mother. When asked if his father was also a witch he replied no, "but there were rumours ..." and was then conveniently cut off. None of that is concrete evidence, but so what? It's just speculation.

If Tayshrenns statement was clear and straightforward, I'd get the frustration provoked by misintepretations. But Tays isn't being clear and unambiguous. Thus, there's no need to be rude and superior about it.

[Aneirin]

Quote

1. If Tays was referring to the Empire, he could have said the Empire. The Empire has never been referred to as Kellanved's child before.

This is quite an argument from silence though. We haven't been privy to any other conversation between Tayschrenn and Kellanved, so we can't say that there's any inconsistency.

Quote

Theres no reason to make the statement ambiguous, other than SE having a laugh at all the speculation it would cause.

The thing is though that considering the context it isn't really ambiguous at all. He was saying that he needn't be fearful for the Wickans, but should perhaps be fearful for the Malazans instead... the statement is an ironic one, as the implicit fear was of what the Malazans would do to the Wickans. Tayschrenn is "frowning down at the smoke-wreathed city" as he says it, the view perhaps giving him a sense of foreshadowing. Given this context, for him to be referring to an actual child would be something of a non-sequitur... it just wouldn't fit with the conversation.

[tiam]

dktorode said:

like i said.......... Nok proves Temper isn't ST's son ...nough said...end of thread...good bye!!!!!!!

Im sorry why does NOK disprove this? i reread NOK the other day but i cant quite understand what u mean

[Greymane]

Aneirin said:

The thing is though that considering the context it isn't really ambiguous at all. He was saying that he needn't be fearful for the Wickans, but should perhaps be fearful for the Malazans instead... the statement is an ironic one, as the implicit fear was of what the Malazans would do to the Wickans. Tayschrenn is "frowning down at the smoke-wreathed city" as he says it, the view perhaps giving him a sense of foreshadowing. Given this context, for him to be referring to an actual child would be something of a non-sequitur... it just wouldn't fit with the conversation.

Good point, the context should be taken into account.

But, the child comment would still fit as a person rather than something more abstract if the child in question was, at that moment, present in said smoke wreathed city.

I'm not totally dismissing the idea that he was referring to the Empire, its a valid opinion. I just don't like how some people are acting like it's a fact that child=Empire. Even in the context you spoke of, theres no clear cut interpretation IMO.

[Morgoth]

Greymane said:

Good point, the context should be taken into account.

But, the child comment would still fit as a person rather than something more abstract if the child in question was, at that moment, present in said smoke wreathed city.

I'm not totally dismissing the idea that he was referring to the Empire, its a valid opinion. I just don't like how some people are acting like it's a fact that child=Empire. Even in the context you spoke of, theres no clear cut interpretation IMO.

Have to agree with you there. Though there are strong implications towards it being the empire, one should not make the assumption that is has to be and that all other opinions are wrong. Some humility never harmed anyone.

When that is said, I think it's the empire, but I wont claim that to be the only valid interpretation

[zeeny]

tiam said:

Im sorry why does NOK disprove this? i reread NOK the other day but i cant quite understand what u mean

Because temper's importance in the book is his connection to dassem and the azath house, he says black on white he's seen the Emperor once or twice, he's NOT in any way dal honese, etc. It really is a pointless discussion. Kellanved having a son who doesn't know who's his father is a soap opera move. Temper being that sun is a "grannies over 80" soap opera material. SE is way better than this.

[LostInnocence]

I've just finished the BH, and have not bought NoK, but it has never crossed my mind that Temper was in any way Kellanved's son. I'm not sure about you guys, but at the back of the BH there's a short synopsis of NoK, and it described Temper as a "grizzled, battle-weary veteran", not exactly the right age group for a child of dear old ST is it?

[the corinthian]

hmmmm, i always figured when he said child, he was talking about the demon who succeded him in coops and that temper was a danger to him, but the empire makes much more sense and hes just afraid for his own skin

[Dolorous Menhir]

LostInnocence;186986 said:

I've just finished the BH, and have not bought NoK, but it has never crossed my mind that Temper was in any way Kellanved's son. I'm not sure about you guys, but at the back of the BH there's a short synopsis of NoK, and it described Temper as a "grizzled, battle-weary veteran", not exactly the right age group for a child of dear old ST is it?

I just referred you to this thread because it had relevant discussion of the child reference, I wasn't implying that you were pushing the Temper connection.

Not sure what you mean by the "grizzled, battle-weary veteran" status of Temper meaning he's an unsuitable age to be Kellanved's? The Emperor lived over a 100 years. Essentially all the mortal characters in the books could be his offspring just by considering age alone, but that's no reason to think they are. And Temper certainly isn't.

[LostInnocence]

Ah I see. My knowledge of most of the characters in the series is a little fuzzy, I had no idea Kellanved was that old. My bad then. But I'll have to agree with most others that Tayschrenn was likely referring to the Empire.

[Ahk-Thenrah]

i think kalam is ST's son, they both have black skin, and him helping Kalam along to the dead house. Don't kill me, please. i just think its possible. yes i know he has the clan name mekhar, but i don't care. i hope it turns out true, so i can say i told u so, but it most likely won't.
and its also much more probable that the child Tay refers to is the empire. still, it had to be said by me. i feel much better now.

[Lancelot]

Kalam is from 7C and ST/Kellanved is Dal Honese. Bam your killed:p

[Aptorian]

Yeah, but Kellanved gets around. He started out on Dal Hon 200 years ago. Who knows where he HASN't been...

[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;187024 said:

....The Emperor lived over a 100 years. Essentially all the mortal characters in the books could be his offspring ...

That's it! That's the connection!!! EVERYONE is related to Kellanved!!!!!!!

- Abyss, ....oh, wait... no they aren't.

[Aptorian]

Ohh, ohh! I know that game "One Degree of Emperor Kellanved" ... it's really not that fun.