[GingerBreadMan]

That doesn't mean THAT much.

We don't really know how good Dancer was before becoming Cotillion.

Once he was Cotillion, Kalam knew he had no chance.

So how good was Dancer before ascending?

[Brys Beddict]

@ Hetan: When ST was saying "Not even Cotillion", I always thought he was referring to Apsalar's brutality. She certainly lays waste to the Claw and has a mean streak as noticed by other people like Fiddler in DG.

I figure Kalam got a lot more powerful at the end of HoC because the last of the Bridgeburners were reunited in Raraku and the Tanno song got completed. Maybe that allowed Kalam to ascend and jump his power a few notches.

[Folken]

He was refering to her Shadow Dance as I understood and said that not even Dancer could've managed such. Didn't think it had anything to do with brutality...Dancer is, all things considered, quite brutal;)

As to the comment about Dancer being good...well what sort of proof do you require of his ability? He was the Emporer's partner, he started up the Talon (oops), he trained them. Yes we've had Topper say that even Dancer would've hesistated taking on Kalam, but that's just the point of view of a character, perhaps just a way of explaining how good Kalam really is. But there was nothing to suggest that Dancer wasn't as good as if not even better than Kalam .

[Brys Beddict]

Sure all assassin's are brutal, but Apsalar was slicing tendons, and snapping bones while on her mad rampage through Malaz City. When we see Cotillion fight in HoC, things are more clean in that he just kills. Apsalar is more of a torturer it seems.

Also, it was Surly that started the Claw. Dancer started up the Talon.

[Avon]

That was just payback for what Pearl did to Kalam.

[Dark Mac]

Brys Beddict said:

Sure all assassin's are brutal, but Apsalar was slicing tendons, and snapping bones while on her mad rampage through Malaz City. When we see Cotillion fight in HoC, things are more clean in that he just kills. Apsalar is more of a torturer it seems.

Well, the first time we see Cotillion he orders the massacre of hundreds of people, which is apparently terribly brutal. The second time we hear of him it's about him slicing open crotches so that the poor people thank Kalam for their deaths. Both of those are pretty awful.

[buddhacat]

Brys Beddict said:

Sure all assassin's are brutal, but Apsalar was slicing tendons, and snapping bones while on her mad rampage through Malaz City.

If you re-read Loastara's part when she walks with Grub through Malaz City, you'll see her notice that the dead Claw had precise stab wounds. Apsalar tortured exactly one person in her Malaz City rampage - Pearl - and she had reason to do that. She says so, before stabbing him with the Paralt knife.

[Trotts]

Quote

The second time we hear of him it's about him slicing open crotches so that the poor people thank Kalam for their deaths.

Don't remember that. I do remember, in GotM prolly, that Sorry had slashed some men in their manbits, and, in the name of mercy, Kalam slit their throats, for which he was thanked.

I think thats how it happened.

[tiam]

yeh thats in GOTM. When the 9th squad went to NAthilog and Sorry started torturing mercenaries to glean information she simply started torturing them. Then kalam was sent forward by WJ after sorry set on their loins

[Dark Mac]

Trotts: Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry if I worded that poorly. But Sorry had none of Apsalar's personality active at the time, so it was really Cotillion who was acting there.

[Avon]

buddhacat said:

If you re-read Loastara's part when she walks with Grub through Malaz City, you'll see her notice that the dead Claw had precise stab wounds.

She recognised that the pattern of wounds matched up with the shadow dance.

[Rockyturnbull]

Getting back to one of the original questions, "are the Claw any good?", I've got a bit of a problem with that.

In GOTM they are built up as something quite extraordinary, I got the impression they were in a different league of organisation and skill to say Vorcan's guild. In the subsequent books though I've had to rethink that. They have slowly but surely been downgraded from terrifying sorcerous assassins into little more than quietly incompetent hired thugs.

The best example of this is when....darn forgot her name...the drunken sargeant, wails on the claw following Banaschar in what is essentially a comedy scene (and funny it was too). This is a long, long way from our intial introduction to the Claw, Surly's SS.

As for Kalam...KALAM ROCKS! Love him. Perhaps there's a slight inconsistency in terms of his relative power in dfiferent books but this can (and has been) explained within the realms of "fantasy" reason. I wonder where it will all end?

[Monoch Ochem]

Not sure if this was raised before or elsewhere but how many agents were taking out the Claw that night?

There was Kalam, T'Amber and Tavore.

There was Apsalar and her shadow dance signature.

Possibly, there was in-fighting among the Claw, as Kalam speculated....I have doubts though. The way those Claw were destroyed seem different...even from the methodic way that Apsalar killed them. There was talk of broken bones etc. So I think of who else was wandering the streets: Grub and his companions. Who were these companions? I now believe them to be Withal, Sandalath and the Nachts....this might have been discussed elsewhere but I've just come to this belief (can't search the whole Forum before expressing every opinion that comes to my head).

Comments?

[Trotts]

I don't have any proof, but maybe we need to look at who said what about the claw. I mean if Topper or Pearl said the Claw are the greatest killing force, maybe their a little biased right?

[tiam]

i believe they are stilll a good force but in different ways. Whereas one on one Rallick would kick the shi*t out of a Claw if a hand of claw were sent in to darujhisan - Rake and his Andii then they would likely be abble to do most pof the guild. They conduct ambushes using magic. They se good quality weapons and could likely kill many guilds. But i believe they thrive on their reputation

[drinksinbars]

i think the problem is that they were built up in the first book and never had their abilities really shown. then books later we have kalam kicking the tar out of a load of them. now kalam is obviously a formidable opponent, and when they say dancer wouldnt face against him, that is nothing like cotillion facing him because dancer was a mortal man, whereas the rope is a GOD!!! also in HOC he isnt fighting against claws, he is fighting talons. Now look at baudin, he was second gen talon and he was so awesome he became knight of death. so kalam cutting his way through them shows just how tough he really is.

as for BH, those are proper assassins, but apart fromt he last fight, which was awesome, kalam isnt fighting on his own, but uses the otatoral to confuse his opponents and his strength and speed to kill them:)

to sum up. KALAM RULES!!!

[Morgoth]

The talons in HoC were pretty much Dom's atempt to resurect the organisation, no? So those talons were nothing like Dancer's tallons I would reckon..

Also, the claw were portrayed as an incredible force in GotM, that is true.. Consider though, how many have been killed since. Rake dispatched the lot entering Pale, Kalam did in a bunch in DG and so on. And then we have Rel's infiltration of the organication. Surely he got ridd of a few as well to ensure his control? I would think that a lot of the elite Claw are dead, and so what we've seen have just been the thugs, so to speak

[PannionDude]

Its the numbers that render it implausible.

I admit that the Claw are poor at combat where their victims know they are coming, that is implicit in the notion of being an assassin. Further everyone's favorite Deus Ex Machina, the Eres'al, was clearly lending a hand with T'amber constantly pointing out the Claw's location no matter where they try to hide. They were essentially in the position of thinking they were ambushing, but in fact getting ambushed.

However, there were too many of them. Kalam fought with knives. He can't beat more than one person at once. The scene just before Pearl poisons him is reminiscent of Detoran's end in its silliness. The Kalam we have seen up till now would have been finished by those guys, or well before. This sudden "speed blurriness" is a very convenient moment to become awesome.

As an aside, and off topic, this is all to say nothing of the Shadow Dance. Why does the Malazan empire HAVE an army? They just need to traumatize a few fisher girls!

[fan_83]

cos not many have the natural talent that aps have and also they don;t have many witch willing to save the mind of the ones getting possessed as well as htey can;t be certain that the ones they created will not turn on them.. also as power draw power.. you create too many of the same you are liable to bring in many more powerful ascendends who can wack your fisher girl...